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4 ERKENNUNGSMARKE: RAD, A.R., St.K. GREN, KRIEGSMARINE

Article about: Hello everyone, I show my four erkennungsmarke. You can say if they are totally original I`m almost certainly are original. Although I always have doubts. 1st: RAD (Reichsarbeitsdienst) RAD-

  1. #1

    Default 4 ERKENNUNGSMARKE: RAD, A.R., St.K. GREN, KRIEGSMARINE

    Hello everyone,
    I show my four erkennungsmarke. You can say if they are totally original
    I`m almost certainly are original. Although I always have doubts.
    1st: RAD (Reichsarbeitsdienst) RAD-ABT K 5 / 77 (L76)
    K = Kriegsbesetzung occupation during the war, were used in the special deployment to the Eastern front. They were used in the construction, but they had to act as combatants.
    5 / 77 = Arbeitsgau VII, Schleswig-Holstein, Arbeitsgruppen 77, Abteilung 5
    L/76=Luftwaffen-Flak-Abteilung 76
    In 1943, thousands of soldiers of R.A.D were trained to use Flak cannon
    Imprinting unusual.

    2nd: 3 (E) / A.R. 2
    Artillery Regiment 2, Battery 3 replacement (Ersatz)
    Do you know anything about the history of this Regiment Artillery 2? I can not find anything about where they fought, the year....

    3rd: St K. Gren. Ers. Btl II / 132
    StammKompanie Grenadier Ersatz II/132
    He fought in the central and northern Russia, stayed close at the end of the war in Kurland. In January-1943 was destroyed at Stalingrad.
    On the back is stamped blood group ...
    Really it means StammKompanie? I Don`t quite understand the meaning.

    4th: Kriegsmarine 7176/45K
    45 = Year 1945 readiness
    K = Küstendienst land.Servicio coastal land or coastal surveillance. Cabotage services, land, naval artillery units, logistics, transportation ....
    A greeting
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by javimetal; 02-22-2010 at 09:58 PM.

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  3. #2
    ?

    Default Re: 4 ERKENNUNGSMARKE: RAD, A.R., St.K. GREN, KRIEGSMARINE

    Hi Javimetal,

    The Kriegsmarine disc is certainly real as is the Artillerie- the Grenadier one is really odd since it seems to have been marked by quite a few different stamp sets, and yes, the RAD one is suspect- I'll have a look at my database of fakes to see if the lettering has been used elsewhere.

    You can find the data you want about the units on the Lexikon der Wehrmacht site- check the sticky thread at the top of the list for the specifics. Since it's specifically an Ersatz-Batterie of an Artillerie-Regiment, it's virtually certain the soldier served in that unit thus the combat history will apply. It's also likely that he was around early on since field units only had their own Ersatz sections for a short time before general Ersatz units in Germany took over the job of training new troops.

    It's only just possible the Grenadier-Ersatz-Bataillon disc belonged to man who was at Stalingrad (unless that's where you got it of course) since the change from the term Infanterie to Grenadier only occurred in October of 1942, and timing-wise it's unlikely he could have been trained and still sent to the city before the encirclement; if he did, it was some terrible luck to be sure. The unit itself is listed as having been disbanded in June, 1943. Do note that it didn't actually fight anywhere- it's a replacement training unit, stationed in Zna, and it only supplied soldiers nominally to the field Regimenter of the 44. Infanterie-Division/ Reichs-Division Hoch-und-Deutschmeister, which was at Stalingrad, but was reconsituted after the disaster and continued in action right until the end of the war.

    That one's an interesting rare example of a multiple unit- that is to say where several units share the same Arabic number; in this case there was an Infanterie (Grenadier)-Ersatz-Bataillon I./ 132 and a II./ 132. Usually the Roman numeral denotes a Bataillon as a subunit of a Regiment, but it was very rarely used in cases like this. Normally the use of both Roman numerals and Arabic numbers together like this would be worrysome, however a search of the units reveals this time it's actually correct.

    My understanding is that the Stammkompanie is the permanent company of every Erstaz Bataillon and to which all the personnel involved in running the unit and the training staff as well belonged. There must have been a relatively high turnover rate of the clerical, etc. staff since discs marked Stammkompanie are extremely common, although a regular soldier could remain in the Stammkompanie of his Ersatz unit for a year or more after joining the military before he was transferred to a field unit.
    Last edited by Matt L; 02-23-2010 at 07:29 AM.
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  4. #3

    Default Re: 4 ERKENNUNGSMARKE: RAD, A.R., St.K. GREN, KRIEGSMARINE

    Hi:
    The Erkennungsmarke of RAD I think it is original.
    It was purchased at a specialist store for collectors.
    On another forum I found a similar(first photo).

    The Erkennungsmarke of Gren. I bought from a collector in a Spanish forum of WWII (i´m from Spain). The two holes are a little worn down by the cord ...
    On the back is stamped blood group

    For me it would be a disappointment if it is a reproduction.
    Thank you very much for the help, it is very important to me.
    A greeting
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by javimetal; 02-23-2010 at 03:49 PM.

  5. #4
    ?

    Default Re: 4 ERKENNUNGSMARKE: RAD, A.R., St.K. GREN, KRIEGSMARINE

    Well it's true that RAD discs aren't faked much because they're not of terribly high value- fakers tend to stick to SS, etc. where they can make more money; that being said, I have seen fakes of regular Grenadier-Erstaz-Bataillone so really nothing is above them.

    The text form 's very similar to several fakes I know of, but I can't find any exact matches, which is good. Unless the source is a real expert in Erkennungsmarken specifically, that it's a specialist store for collectors really doesn't mean anything- there are thousands of dealers in the world and the vast, vast majority know little about identity discs; one simply cannot be expert enough in everything and there's so much fakery out there, any dealer has his hands full just with medals and badges...

    The wear from the neck cord really is only a feature that one can use to show a disc is a fake since if it's done well, it's indistinguishable from true wear, but if done poorly it's obviously put there. Real wear is usually quite smooth becasue it's formed over a very long period of time, but that induced by fakers usually has at least a bit sharper an edge. It's really hard to say anything from the photos you posted because they're slightly fuzzy and since we're looking for a sharper vs. smoother line, a clear photo really is necessary.

    I would say it's unlikely the disc is a fake though- again being just a Grenadier-Ersatz-Bataillon means it's not of much value monitarily, thus not something faked a great deal. If you can provide some clearer close-up photos, maybe more can be said either way. I don't have any significant doubts however. It's just very odd to see such different lettering in the main text- I've only ever seen the occasional different letter because it's understanable that one might be lost over time, but on yours 'Gren' is completely different than the 'Ers. Btl' so at least 4 letters are from a different stamp set, and it just happens to be those particularly letters not just some random assortment. It is interesting though that it happens to be 'Gren'. since the change from 'Inf.' to 'Gren.' would have happened not long before this disc was made- so perhaps there's something in that which explains it; we assume units had complete alphabet stamp sets, but maybe they just had all the numbers and only the letters that they needed for their particular text? If so, then they wouldn't have any of 'G, r, e, n' so would need them and that could explain why the form is different?
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  6. #5

    Default Re: 4 ERKENNUNGSMARKE: RAD, A.R., St.K. GREN, KRIEGSMARINE

    Thank you very much for the great explanation Matt.
    It's hard this Erkennungsmarke: on one hand could be a reproduction, but could be Original .... Bufff !!!!!
    I noticed that are different Gren and Ers, but I never gave importance
    In another forum of Erkennungsmarke, told me it was good before I buy it.
    There will always be doubts.
    Thanks for your research.

  7. #6
    ?

    Default Re: 4 ERKENNUNGSMARKE: RAD, A.R., St.K. GREN, KRIEGSMARINE

    Well I'd say it's a 90:10 split between likely real and possibly fake- unfortunately it's not one I'd immediatley say 'yes, it's unquestionably authentic', but there are only a few small oddities that make me wonder if it's possibly a reproduction. As I say, I doubt it though. You're probably quite safe.
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  8. #7

    Default Re: 4 ERKENNUNGSMARKE: RAD, A.R., St.K. GREN, KRIEGSMARINE

    Well Matt, you've worked very hard to determine Original or Fake.
    You have been very kind to study this Erkennugsmarke that difficult.
    Since I was young, I always have liked Dogtags soldiers and now I've decided, but I see that it is not easy, as most military objects collection.
    Within a short time I like to buy 2 Iron Cross WWI and WWII .....( but that is another topic)
    A greeting from Spain

    Looking on the Internet I've seen this:

    http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...rsBat132-R.htm
    Last edited by javimetal; 02-24-2010 at 12:52 AM.

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