Is Erkennungsmarken-colleting ethical?

[danhashman]

Today i have a very simple (..or maybe not so simple) question.

Is Erkennungsmarken-collecting ethical?
It is known that quite many items that end up in archaeological or militaria collection come from illegal digging / looting.. and some items may just be found casually..

When i see COMPLETE marks on sale, i always get nervous. Medals, helmets, buckles.. these are all quite anonimous items, but the Erkennungsmarke is the soldiers ID, his Field- Passport, created specially for the sad case that he dies on the battlefield.

There are millions of helmets, that are all alike and if sold dont really damage the dead, but a sold ID- mark, throws a dead pearson forever into anonimity and eternal forgetting..

So, there may be ID- marks with a "good" background too, where no damage is done to the dead or his family, but i still keep on asking myself, is it ethical to have somebodys ID in the collection, knowing that this implies a dead person may never be identified?
Isnt it like buying Ivory or Jaguar-skins?
I dont want them in my collection - but maybe i am just too radical... and i dont want to hurt other members sensitivities
with this tricky question..

Just wanted to share my thoughts on what i believe is a hot iron in collecting (.. i rather have a cold beer instead..)

[Glenn66]

Hi Dan,

A valid question you raise however IMO it is a point that you could wrangle yourself into knots over to no good end.

I have a number of whole erkennungsmarken and whilst I could cry myself to sleep over possible black digging or unethical acquisition of same, I have to trust that the diggers I have bought from have ensured to identify any remains prior to repatriation to the Volksbund people (in the case of German remains). I have read that the Volksbund are only interested in remains, not personal effects/equipment so therefore the soldier's ID is free to be retained/sold etc once the proper formalities are taken care of.

I don't buy ID off ebay or off unknown diggers/collectors and so have to trust in the ethics of known forum members and their search teams. To think otherwise would only result in brain-hurt and with no absolute means of knowing for sure the option is to never collect IDs and this IMO leads to the loss of historical artifacts.

[Eike41]

That is an interesting question.

Obviously you feel it is unethical as it hurts families and condemns fallen soldiers to oblivion in your opinion. It also apparently causes the extinction of rare species somehow.

I however feel it is impossible to keep the tags separate from other items. I am certain that if tags had no value they would disappear when bodies were exhumed and the helmet rings badges and such from the grave would be sold, and then the tag would be discarded really condemning the soldier to oblivion for all time. Ground dug items are by their nature possibly from graves or places where soldiers fought and died. As Glenn noted above however most diggers do turn over the remains for re-burial. In my personal experience this happened 100% of the time. I have personally seen many sets of bones come from the ground.

The real problem is the poverty and lack of respect for life and history that permeates the areas where digging is common. The culture of demonizing and disrespecting the invading armies contribute as well. These diggers not only dig up WWII areas they destroy ancient sites throughout eastern Europe. It is easy to do when most former soviet states are Kleptocracies.

There is no military collecting that does not carry some of the blood from the battle with it.

[Gunny Hartmann]

I would never buy the top half of the disc which stayed with the body!...

[stuka f]

Not even the lower part, for me...
cheers
|<ris

[danhashman]

I would never buy the top half of the disc which stayed with the body!...

Wouldn´t it more likely be: "Should have STOOD with the body... " ??
As i don´t know if the upper half should ever be separated from the remains, only maybe by the forensic team or the authorities in charge once all is registered or positive identification has been made.

I keep my father´s swiss army dogtags, feel sorta emotionally attached to them, and he´s still alive.. Its hard for me to believe that sombody would sell their Grandfather´s ID- marks (upper, lower or complete..) for money . But well, maybe i am just too emotional..

As stated above, much militaria has some blood to it, maybe with the Panzerfaust tube that hangs on my wall a T34 was shot to flames and it brought death & destruction... It´s war, and its a weapon... Horrible, but i still collect it for historical / aesthetical purposes.. But those ID-tags have something more grim, more sinister to them.. maybe that being lost and then forgotten into oblivion- factor...

[Ylang]

You asked a question, to which a simple reply cant be given.

The law when it comes to digging varies across the world, in Poland it is forbibben, but... hardly anyone gives any F... about the items that are in the ground. The people that are responsible for it, not only dont care, or do it by themselves, but also dont let anyone else do it. As everyone knows, Poland is 3rd world country located in Europe, where poverty, neglect etc. can be seen everywhere. If you come from the Rich east countries to Poland, it feels like you travelled in time. Obviously we have our archaeologists here, but they are rather interested in other time period than World War 2/1, medieval, and such.

I, personally completely support the diggers. If not them, a lot of items would still be in the ground, would be permanently destroyed, or lost, but thanks to them, to every single person that does spend time on searching, and digging, we get to see so many items rescued, they also clean the land, as our soil is full of all sort of duds from wars that have been happening here, that is another topic, that completely noone gives a F... about.

Sad, but true.

Also, I hope that, whoever finds a fallen soldier, does report that, and in that case, an ID remains, but so many of these are randomly found without any trace of a human being.

[inka]

Some disgusting individuals desecrate graves and sell items from fallen soldiers, but I m sure far more tags are found without any body nearby. Soldiers lost them,threw them away, depots threw away tags and the capitulation sites can hold many tags.

Below some tags all found in the same area over a few days searching, a depot stash thrown away.