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Fake Challenge VIIII

Article about: No, Ersatz units are homeland replacement training units. Field issued discs would be actual field units.

  1. #1
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    Default Fake Challenge VIIII

    Okay, here's a new one folks- 100% fake with multiple issues-

    the text reads:

    233

    PZ. AUFKL. ERS. U. AUSB. ABT. 11/ STAMMKP

    (Panzer-Aufklärungs-Ersatz und-Ausbildungs-Abteilung 11/ Stammkompanie)

    There is one primary problem, one big problem that should catch one's eye immediately, one other noticable issue that, while not immediately fatal, is not normal and can be an indicator there's a good chance the disc is a fake, and one related problem that makes no sense with the other details of the disc.

    So what do you guys think?
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	PZ AUFKL ERS U AUSB ABT 11.JPG 
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ID:	97196  
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

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  3. #2

    Default Re: Fake Challenge VIIII

    Well...this is all guessing ...again..

    First off, it looks like the letters have been messed with. It appears that the disc has been sanded down, and re stamped. I am looking in particular to the side with the single hole, by the last word, Stammkp,-there appears to be a phantom "N" with a dot after it…or I could be on crack.
    My understanding of the abbreviations is bad to poor… but am I reading this tag as a recon unit, and a training section? Did the Germans do that?
    The PZ, does that no indicate Personenzug or a passenger train? I thought Pz was for panzers?
    There’s no blood type..but we have been through that…
    The soldier number split around the cord hole is something I am sure would be part of a fake.
    I suspect the double stamp of the “s” in ERS on both sides is a problem.
    I thought I read in the forum that all upper case letters was an issue…but I could be on crack again.
    Well..that’s my kick at the cat..tell me if I’m close, and I’ll try to look for more.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Fake Challenge VIIII

    Lots of good observations- I'll address them one at a time:

    Quote by SatansCabanaBoy View Post
    Well...this is all guessing ...again..

    First off, it looks like the letters have been messed with. It appears that the disc has been sanded down, and re stamped. I am looking in particular to the side with the single hole, by the last word, Stammkp,-there appears to be a phantom "N" with a dot after it…or I could be on crack.
    It may be the parallel lines in the surface that make you think of some kind of sanding or grinding, but that's actually not uncommon for rolled sheet metal to have that kind of look and I really think that's all this is- I don't actually see the phantom 'N' you mentioned and when you consider how deep the stamping on a disc usually is vs. its thickness, would it really seem possible to completely grind down a surface to re-mark it? I'm kind of doubtful it'd work- plus blank discs aren't really that difficult to come by as to warrant that much work But physical traits are important to look at for sure- I've seen some badly made discs where the Trennschlitzen (the slits in the middle) didn't even line up straight...

    My understanding of the abbreviations is bad to poor… but am I reading this tag as a recon unit, and a training section? Did the Germans do that?
    The PZ, does that no indicate Personenzug or a passenger train? I thought Pz was for panzers?
    Sorry, I should have translated the marking as well- it's 'armoured-reconnaissance replacement and training detachment 11' so it'd have been a specialist type unit that apparently provided replacement troops for Panzer-Aufklärungs units. Panzer in this case is essentially an adjective- you'll find Panzer-Aufklärungs, Panzer-Pionier, Panzer-Nachrichten, and so on- they're all the typical unit types for an armoured element; they may or may not themselves have anything armoured- although usually there're SPWs or something light at least.

    There’s no blood type..but we have been through that…
    The soldier number split around the cord hole is something I am sure would be part of a fake.
    Hit- that's the problem that's noticable but not necessarily fatal- it's very, very odd to see a Stammrollennummer broken up on either side of the bottom half hole- it's not completely unknown, but it's not the least bit normal; and to break up a 3-digit number is just silly. Fakers, for some reason that we should be thankful for really, do it oddly often. So while not a strict indicator of a fake, it's something to make you wonder.

    I suspect the double stamp of the “s” in ERS on both sides is a problem.
    Couldn't someone stamping discs all day in the early 40s not have blown the 'S' too? Something like a stamping error is very difficult to consider good or bad since anyone could do it. Only things that definitely or extremely likely couldn't have happened in reality can be taken as real problems save in the case of 'just one more nail in the coffin'.

    I thought I read in the forum that all upper case letters was an issue…but I could be on crack again.
    Well..that’s my kick at the cat..tell me if I’m close, and I’ll try to look for more.
    Nope no crack- I did say that. All upper case, sans-serif (important that it be both) are used a LOT on fake discs and quite uncommonly on real ones- although they were here and there; so while again not a definite indicator, it's something that should give one pause and suggest further examination. The vast, vast majority of original discs were upper and lower case, serif fonts, and sometimes all capital, serif fonts- uncommonly do you find upper and lower, sans-serif, and really very rarely are they all capital, sans-serif.
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  5. #4

    Default Re: Fake Challenge VIIII

    Well..with the "s" it's the same mistake in the same word that kind of caught my eye.
    I am thinking that when these are punched, that each letter is punched one at a time with a punch set similar to an awl? Would these have been set like type in a press with a bunch of abbreviations all struck at once?

    ..and for the phantom N this is what I saw...guess I'm just looking too hard.
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  6. #5
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    Default Re: Fake Challenge VIIII

    Quote by SatansCabanaBoy View Post
    Well..with the "s" it's the same mistake in the same word that kind of caught my eye.
    I am thinking that when these are punched, that each letter is punched one at a time with a punch set similar to an awl? Would these have been set like type in a press with a bunch of abbreviations all struck at once?
    Oh I agree it's strange that although there are several 'S's, it just happens that these two are double-struck- it may well be that it's intentional, but if so it's rather dumb since it automatically looks odd LOL

    Yes, letter stamps are individual steel rods that are just placed and struck- kind of like a centrepunch. No, no machines were used- perhaps the large, single stamps were done with a machine but I've never seen anything to suggest that individual abbreviations were ever single stamps.

    ..and for the phantom N this is what I saw...guess I'm just looking too hard.
    I see it now, but I'm certain it's just an illusion since it's right where the damage is; if it were real, one would expect the same on the opposite side and it's very clear.


    Since I'm trying to help people learn how to evaluate discs for problems, I won't choose anything cryptic or difficult to recognize- it's all clear and, given the information and sources I've provided and recommended, shouldn't be difficult to find.
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  7. #6

    Default Re: Fake Challenge VIIII

    So..I'm 2 for 4..?
    (Did I get the obvious one?...the soldier number split?)

    Now I'm guessing that the Unit did not exist?

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Fake Challenge VIIII

    One for four- the duplicated 's' is more of an eyebrow raiser than something I'd say is useful to retain as a real issue one might encounter. And what makes you think the unit didn't exist? Guessing doesn't count- you have to check LOL
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  9. #8

    Default Re: Fake Challenge VIIII

    Curses...






    okay..let me take another angle on this...

    Stamm should be first on the disc, with a space between Stamm and KP not last and put together?

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Fake Challenge VIIII

    RIGHT- partially; Stammkp. is fine since it is one word (in German compound words are common, and Stammkompanie is one- although it doesn't HAVE to be marked as one word- Stamm. Kp. is also correct), but it SHOULD be first. The proper layout of any unit text should be smallest to largest- i.e. Kompanie first. The only proper form would be:

    Stammkp./ Pz. Aufkl. Ers. u. Ausb. Abt. 11 (so the slash is in the wrong place too- it separates the small unit from the main one).

    So that's a significant issue- placing the Kompanie at the end could be taken as a fatal problem. It's not the worst one, but what I'd say is second worst- BUT it's the most obvious.

    The truly fatal problem is one you'd have to look up and you guessed right- there was no Panzer-Aufklärungs-Ersatz-und Ausbildungs-Abteilung 11.

    There's still one further problem, which is related to the blood group, or, rather the lack of one and the condition of the disc...
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  11. #10

    Default Re: Fake Challenge VIIII

    When Ersatz is involved it means it is a field issue disc?

    If it's a field issue disc, it should have a blood group..?

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