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Fake Test

Article about: Hi guys, I thought it might be interesting to run a little test here and hopefully show a very simple way to recognize fake SS discs. Have a look at the image below- it's a fake... but why?

  1. #31

    Default Re: Fake Test

    Okay, it's 3pm here on the Pacific coast, I'm taking another little break from the old forge, and I guess it's time I should post the answer(s).

    The problems are all with the unit text:

    SS- PZ. ERS. U. AUSB. ABT. 7

    The main and immediately-recognizable issue if you're familiar at all with unit nomenclature, is the "ERS. U. AUSB."- Ersatz-und Ausbildung (replacement and training) part- this is the HEER version of the 'phrase'; for some unknown reason, the SS reversed the order and theirs is always Ausbildungs-und Ersatz so the text of a real disc would read "SS-PZ. AUSB. U. ERS. ABT". It's an incredibly simple way to spot a fake- if you see the Heer order on a supposed SS disc, you know without needing to look at anything else that it's bad.

    The second reason is simple as well, but requires a little research that really should be conducted as a matter of course- one should always ask the question 'did this unit actually exist?'. In this case, it did not- there is no SS-Panzer-Ausbildungs-und Ersatz-Abteilung 7 listed anywhere. There were only two such units, numbered 1 and 2 and that's all. There was a Heer Panzer-Ersatz-und Ausbildungs-Abteilung 7, so it's possible this disc is one of those authentic army discs that some joker has just added "SS" to, however it's difficult to say given how less-than-optimal the image is. Whatever the case, it's not a real SS disc and even if it's a real army one, which is probably doubtful, it's ruined anyway.

    So the lesson to take from this is always look at the text and see if it fits with normal convention and check to see if the unit did indeed exist. These two little things are easy ways of helping you avoid fakes.
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

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  3. #32

    Default Re: Fake Test

    Just for the heck of it, here's another brutally-bad fake that should be immediately obvious because of nonsensical unit text:

    7./SS-Geb. Jag. Rgt. 12. MG

    The moronic faker went too far and if he'd left off the terminal 'MG' it wouldn't be soooo bad (although it still has multiple other problems). Why is it bad? Because firstly the MG Kompanien of an Infanterie-type Regiment were the fourth of each of the three Bataillone- that is to say the 4., 8., and 12. Kompanien. The 7. Kompanie was a regular rifle Kompanie. Plus the MG doesn't go at the end. Ever. If it's included in the text it should almost always appear after the number, often in parenthises, i.e. : "4. (MG)/ xyz" and I have one where it's marked above the "4. KP" but it does not go at the end after the Bataillon or Regiment number. It's a descriptor of the Kompanie, thus goes with that bit of the text.

    There are two other problems with this disc as well:

    1) the lettering is a famous fake type- note the space in the 'a'
    2) the abbreviation 'Jag' is missing the Umlaut over the 'a'
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	SS Geb Jäg Rgt 12.jpg 
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ID:	84098  
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  4. #33

    Default Re: Fake Test

    thanks for the info matt. so you are sure my id tag is fake?

  5. #34

    Default Re: Fake Test

    No problem- I hope it helps folks in the future.

    And yeah, I'm afraid so. It has a major problem and some minor ones and the best rule of thumb about SS discs is that they shouldn't just have no questionable features but there should actually be good things that suggest they're real.

    Yours doesn't have a blood group letter on it (unless it's on the back) to it's not suggested to have been actually issued per se, and units did carry pre-marked replacements with them, but in this case there's absolutely no conceivable way even a Regiment would have over 5000 ready replacements since that's about the usual full strength of one. I actually just realized too that it's not normal to lack a Kompanie number as well- I can't say I've ever seen a general Regiment disc. So that's one more strike against it I'm afraid...
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  6. #35

    Default Re: Fake Test

    i found a couple of tags i'm interested in, what do you think of them matt?
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	id4-2.jpg 
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ID:	84329  

  7. #36

    Default Re: Fake Test

    The picture's awfully small but I don't like what I see at all- the one on the right may be a common fake type and the left one isn't very positive- looking; if you can post better pictures I can say just why there may be issues, but I'll likey advise passing on them either way.
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  8. #37

    Default Re: Fake Test

    they're from a dealer, i'll see if i can get some better pics.

  9. #38

    Default Re: Fake Test

    I'm sure it'll just be for educational purposes- showing two more examples of fakes. Actually I can see one indicator right now- the 'corrosion'- look at the semicircular difference in coloration on the right side- that likely shows many discs were stacked and treated chemically. There's little chance you could naturally get the same odd marking on both from very different units when both are supposed to be issued discs.

    I'd honestly suggest that if anyone is interested in collecting Erkennungsmarken to just forget the SS ones- real examples are quite rare and 99.99% of what you'll see for sale is fake. Regular army, etc. are far less-faked and thus you can actually find something to collect LOL I, myself, in the 5 or 6 years of very active collecting acquired only I think it was 9 real SS discs- 6 from one single source- and have seen probably 12 or 14 others over the last 5 or 6 years for sale. Nearly all of mine came from metal-dectorist friends or sources in Europe, so I automatically knew the primary source or had a good reason to trust them.
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  10. #39

    Default Re: Fake Test

    do you have a pic of a real ss tag i can look at. you have been a great teacher matt.

  11. #40

    Default Re: Fake Test

    Sure, here's a nice one- SS-Flak-Ersatz-Regiment with a great Waffen-SS on the back. For some specialist type units, the Waffen-SS had only one or started with only one, so there'd be no number.

    I don't know just why it was broken, but it's often the case that metal detectorists will find one half of a disc in one spot and the other in a different spot some meters away as if at the end of the war the owner broke it and threw the halves different directions; there are many instances of men having buried their identifying materials (discs, cuff titles or rank insignia) and sometimes weapons, and it also seems that sometimes when groups of prisoners were taken, their materials were 'destroyed' like this- presumably so the same disc couldn't be used by more than one man. Friends of mine in Europe have found caches of broken discs like this in places where locals remember groups of Germans being taken prisoner at the end of the war. They also find pits full of medals and badges presumably taken and dumped at the same time.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	SS Flak.jpg 
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ID:	84379  
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

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