Opinions Please

**Serpent** · 12-20-2013, 09:15 AM

Those of you who have read my thread in the TR Ring forum know that I am a new German militaria collector with an interest in SS items. I have started looking at ID discs but see that they are as fraught with fakes as rings. I've been spending much of my time trying to learn how to spot a fakes in general but I'm still not quite adept enough at it so I'm turning to the forums for help. I am looking at one ID disc in particular and was wondering if the experts here can determine if it is fake or real. The more detailed explanation you are able to provide as to why it is real or fake would be most helpful and appreciated.

Thank you!

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 12-20-2013 09:15 AM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**Matt L** · 12-20-2013, 03:31 PM

Hi Serpent,

Yeah, you've chosen an interest that's tough in general given how heavily-faked SS stuff is. Erkennungsmarken are especially difficult since there are thousands of different types, and far more fake SS ones are out there than real ones.

I don't like that one myself. There could be several issues: firstly Kommandantur and Stab don't generally go together as they're essentially variations of the same 'section' of a disc- the subunit; I can't say I've ever seen both on any disc and can't really see how it'd work. There might be some case where they could, but I've never seen it. Then there's the issue of the usual unit being 'SS-Totenkopf-Sturmbann, KL whatever'- I've never heard of just a/the KL-Sturmbann- especially without a location name. It'd be necessary to research both of these to be sure there isn't some exception, but non-combat formations are not so easy, and I only have references for those myself. And I know I've seen that 'wacky' font before- I can't recall where, or if it was this same type of disc, but just from experience it doesn't sit well with me; unfortunately, I can't explain that one but to say it's just after having looked at thousands of discs, one can get immediate impressions of a disc that make it look good or bad, and this one immediately looked bad to me.

When it comes to SS discs, because there are so so many fakes, I usually recommend that one not only have to have no real questions about it, but that it should in fact look good- and this one has nothing good about it, and questions for sure- so I'd give it a pass completely.

**Serpent** · 12-20-2013, 03:47 PM

Thank you Matt for your reply!

I thought that the location was Stutthof, no? Stu=Stutthof/Stb= Sturmbann; no?

Though either way it sounds as if you would still have several concerns with this one.

Does anyone else have another opinion or any further supporting info as to why this one is no good?

Thanks!

**Woolgar** · 12-20-2013, 03:53 PM

by Serpent

Thank you Matt for your reply!

I thought that the location was Stutthof, no? Stu=Stutthof/Stb= Sturmbann; no?

Though either way it sounds as if you would still have several concerns with this one.

Does anyone else have another opinion or any further supporting info as to why this one is no good?

Thanks!

Hi Serpent

Opinions dont get much better than Matt's, he's at the top of his game with these !

Nick

**Serpent** · 12-20-2013, 03:57 PM

by Woolgar

Hi Serpent

Opinions dont get much better than Matt's, he's at the top of his game with these !

Nick

Thanks Nick

I did get that impression reading over the threads in this forum so I'm very thankful for his feedback

**rbminis** · 12-20-2013, 04:28 PM

by Woolgar

Hi Serpent

Opinions dont get much better than Matt's, he's at the top of his game with these !

Nick

I can only echo Nick's comment.
Ralph.

**Glenn66** · 12-20-2013, 04:37 PM

I actually liked the fact that it appears to be a single stamp. So if it is a fake, the faker has gone to the effort and expense of having a stamp made to a single unit. Therefore, wouldn't we expect to see more from this 'unit' appear?

**Matt L** · 12-20-2013, 05:21 PM

by Serpent

Thank you Matt for your reply!

I thought that the location was Stutthof, no? Stu=Stutthof/Stb= Sturmbann; no?

Thanks!

Hmmmm- yeah, I should probably finish my morning coffee before writing things LOL I see that you're probably right about what the 'Stu.' is supposed to be- the typical mark of 'SS-T-Stuba. KL xxx' is what came to mind, and I just figured the faker got it all wrong as is sometimes the case LOL I did just now find an image in my database of a possibly original KL disc that's marked 'Kdtr. Stab. KL xxx' too, so I guess that may not be completely wrong as well. I know combat formations primarily- these 'other' types aren't so much my area with respect to nomenclature, organization, etc.

I still don't like how it looks though- but can't give any concrete reason other than experience and the simple statistical fact that the vast majority of SS discs you're likely to find are fakes. So if something doesn't look right and has nothing about it that looks good, I still wouldn't consider it without some serious proof it's real.

Glenn might be right that the unit is a single stamp- notice how the 'K's are different, so clearly not one single stamp- but it doesn't appear to be all that well-made, so isn't typical of the single stamps I've seen. They're usually very well made, and that's part of why I don't like the look of the thing; the letters are on the crude side. And being relatively stylized, that's not typical in my experience either.

**Gunny Hartmann** · 12-20-2013, 05:25 PM

No corrosion in the stampings?....

**Serpent** · 12-21-2013, 01:29 PM

by Matt L

Glenn might be right that the unit is a single stamp- notice how the 'K's are different, so clearly not one single stamp- but it doesn't appear to be all that well-made, so isn't typical of the single stamps I've seen. They're usually very well made, and that's part of why I don't like the look of the thing; the letters are on the crude side. And being relatively stylized, that's not typical in my experience either.

Thanks again, Matt, for sharing your expertise!

Upon closer inspection it would appear that you are right about the K's and the S's look different as well. Is that unusual?

I was wondering how one can tell if a single stamp was used or not. I've seen this brought up as a good indication of authenticity on the forums but wasn't sure what to look for.

Gunny's corrosion comment is also interesting to me. I find it difficult to look at the disc and see if there is corrosion in the stamping. Might you have examples that show such corrosion to which to compare this one?

Thank you!