Reality Challenge I

[Matt L]

Okay folks- here's a slightly modified version of the old Fake Challenge; really I just realized it limited the possibilities by only showing fakes and asking what was wrong- now I'm asking you if a disc is real or not, and why

A friend of mine asked about these three just now and I figured I'd post them here to see what you guys think:







So real or not for each, and just why you think so...

[Panzer trooper]

Im not an expert on these but I dont like any of them as all the ss runes are wrong on all of them but im sure if im wrong somebody will correct me.

[Eike41]

After some brief thinking and checking I don't like the Unit names on the top and bottom disks, the fonts don't look good either. The bottom unit existed but I just don't know if the tag is stamped right ,NORGE' just seems wrong, with such a low roll number the 23 would not be correct as the unit had 23 added at some point after it was formed and roll number 84 would already be in the unit. The top disk just seems wrong because of the font and unit name. The middle disk looks OK to me from a unit and font standpoint but either the picture is squashed or the disk is the wrong shape, It is too round and the single hole is too far from the edge. the top and bottom disks look chemically aged to me as well.

[Matt L]

Okay, well thanks for answering Panzer trooper and Eike41

I'm curious what you mean by 'wrong' Panzer?

And you're right Eike, the shape of the SS-Pionier one is odd, but more a more 'fat' oval is a true subtype; the thing that's atypical is the bottom hole placement- that's weirdly far from the edge. The Norge disc is automatically suspect since these are faked a lot- several have been discussed here in the recent past in fact. The 'Norge' mark is correct for the Panzergrenadier version of the unit, but prior to that the unit is listed as being called 'SS-Freiwilligen-Legion Norwegen', so indeed the unit mark is highly dubious. I didn't try to match the font of the Hohenstaufen disc, but you might be right that it could be a known fake- but that'd have to be demonstrated. The unit is indeed invented though- there was an SS-Artillerie-Regiment Hohenstaufen, but this disc purports to be SS-Artillier-ERSATZ-Regiment Hohenstaufen, which is a complete fantasy LOL The Waffen-SS had exactly one SS-Artillerie-Ersatz-Regiment and it was called just that. Hohenstaufen didn't have its own.

There are lots of other issues too beyond those pointed out- in fact the problems I found for my friend were different and quite simple: notice how the '2' of the Hohenstaufen and the Norge is identical- that's a killer right off the bat. Not only that but it's a known fake font. The second problem that sinks the third disc is that its '3' matches that on the Norge disc. The '4's appear to be the same too.

As I said, the letters could-well be bad- it'd take a little searching though. The Hohenstaufen's roll number is impossibly high too- it's marked to the 2. Batterie, not just the Regiment itself, so 5500 men listed in a single Batterie's roll? Not a chance. It's questionable too whether over 1100 men passed through the 3. Kompanie of the SS-Pionier-Ersatz-Bataillon- that seems a little high too, although the disc is already obviously fake.

[Panzer trooper]

So I mean the ss letters are to big they dont match the rest of the writing on the I.d.disc I was going to say they look pre aged as well.as for the units I wouldn't have a clue as to where to start looking with that!

[Matt L]

Ah, okay, well it'd doubtful stamp sets were ever or often produced with a Sigrune stamp, so they're separate, special ones- so there's not really any reason they should be the same size as the lettering. Sometimes they're close but just as often they're not. Just a regular Latin 'S' was used often enough- so Sigrune stamps weren't even necessarily always available.

One of the key features of Erkennungsmarken is that they're virtually all different with respect to their lettering; that means thousands of different stamp sets, so expecting a 'proper' anything is a mistake- the only time considering anything 'proper' is when comparing discs from the exact same unit, and even then sometimes stamps (either individual ones or whole sets) could change over time. As I've pointed out above, when things are the same on different units' discs, that's actually very bad LOL

I don't think the age looks fake myself- in fact, overall I felt the discs looked realistic enough, particularly the one with the corrosion 'hole'. Unit information is easy enough to find- just type it in and Google or Bing will come up with several pages. We specifically posted a permanent sticky thread in this section with a link to the Lexikon der Wehrmacht site, that is titled 'look for unit information here' LOL Of course one needs the 'translation' of the disc markings- I probably should have provided that in the initial post since that's not necessarily so easy to find...

[Panzer trooper]

I see thanks for the info,im still learning lol.

[Glenn66]

The haloing on the Hohenstaufen was an immediate red flag to me.

[Gazal Al Shaqab]

Something else, even if I am not sure…
On the Hohenstaufen too: the three long holes in the middle (for breaking) don't line up.
Is it ever normal? (I saw this on several others EKM).
Or is it maybe just a perspective "effect" of the picture.

[Matt L]

Yeah, I can't decide if that's a real 'halo' of patina loss or if it's just the way the corrosion occurred around the letters; it's not so obviously the former to me. But it is an oddity to be sure.

And that's a good thing to look for Gazal- but I'm not sure it's actually so; I just checked it with a ruler and they do appear to line up- but I do see what you mean, so it might just be an optical illusion. The damage may be a distortion of the surface- a dent or something- that has altered the lighting or appearance of the surface a little. But no, one slit not in line is never seen on a real disc- apart from field-made ones, which are a special case (and are obviously hand-made). Real discs were made by stamping machines and I'd think it likely all three Trennschlitzen were punched at once, so they'd always be in line. I've certainly never seen a clearly original disc with any of the slits not in line.