SS Erkennungsmarken

**don_kihotis7** · 11-08-2011, 11:24 PM

Hi guys i saw this ''Hohenstaufen'' division disc being discussed in another forum. Everyone said it's a fake except from the owner and another member.
I'm very curious and thought to ask you what do you think.
Thanks in advance.

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 11-08-2011 11:24 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**Matt L** · 11-09-2011, 05:47 AM

Funny, one of these was asked about here recently too: Waffen ss hohenstaufen The text appears identical, although I can't quite understand why the 'Gren.' portion of this one is out of line- it appears to be one single stamp of the whole text, but that doesn't fit with any portion being off the line. Strange. The high number is consistent with the type and it being a Nirostahl disc. It seems to me to be odd that a fake would have a significant flaw like that, but a real one, when dozens or hundreds are marked each day, is much more understandable. It's also odd that every example I've now seen (4 I think), is different either in material (others are zinc) or condition- differing patination, etc.- not normal for fakes by any means.

I wonder if any of the people on the other forum gave any real reasons for calling it fake- it's the easiest thing to say but without a reason it's not even a valid opinion. I for one have no reason to call these fake, but of course nothing solid to say they're real either. Like I wrote in the other thread, if they are fake, someone invested a pretty nice stamp and went to a rather exessive amount of trouble for a few discs that doubtless can't be making them much money...

**don_kihotis7** · 11-09-2011, 08:22 AM

Hi Matt and thanks for your reply. I have read the other thread, the link of you have provided above.
Very interesting. I lean towards they are real but as you said there is no solid proof.
The guys from waf just said: bad, not good etc

They had given no reason at all why they believed it was a fake. Only one guy replied positively but he didn't make any point as well. Just that it was a nice solid example, but as i said without saying how he come to this conclusion.
What does Nirostahl disc mean?
This one is an aluminum piece right?

**Paul D** · 11-09-2011, 09:07 AM

It seems to be Hohenstaufen season at the moment !! Very high number on this one Matt , way above the strength of the Division at any time in it's very short history as a Pz Gren Div , these high numbers on all the discs i have seen are an unusual feature , i'll press the question on WAF as to why people think they are fakes !!

**don_kihotis7** · 11-09-2011, 12:39 PM

I don't think you will a descent reply Paul

Usually in waf when someone says ''bad'' another 2-3 pop out saying the same thus you never get an explanation of what were the red flags. Compare the thread regarding the other Hohenstaufen disc that Matt told me about, with the one in waf and you will see the difference in quality of the 2 discussions.

**Jerry B** · 11-09-2011, 12:42 PM

I asked on the WAF as to why the opinions were posted and only one reply so far, though I only asked earlier today. The incomplete stamping of GREN and the flatness of the base of the letters were the two things the poster mentioned.

Regards,

Jerry

**Adrian Stevenson** · 11-09-2011, 12:48 PM

Hi Chris, Nirostahl = Stainless steel.

Cheers, Ade.

**don_kihotis7** · 11-09-2011, 01:26 PM

I'm watching it with interest Jerry

Thanks Ade. I thought it was some kind of disc

**Matt L** · 11-09-2011, 03:39 PM

by Bond

I asked on the WAF as to why the opinions were posted and only one reply so far, though I only asked earlier today. The incomplete stamping of GREN and the flatness of the base of the letters were the two things the poster mentioned.

Regards,

Jerry

Well the incomplete stamping is very odd- but as I say, to me that's more positive than negative because it's the kind of mistake I wouldn't expect a faker to make- certainly not twice. Notice how the flaw is the same on both sides- that's more of an 'industrial' mistake. I always wondered if these 'one large stamp' types had to be made by machine- it'd be very tough for one person to successfully strike a metal disc with a big stamp by hand. It may be that the stamp was damaged- that would account for the identical flaw on both sides.

Fakers are trying to make something recognizable and valuable so I have trouble with the idea of someone creating a fairly unique stamp if he wants it to be taken as real- why choose something people will wonder about? Especially when there's so much caution by collectors- you get a zillion guys with maybe a little experience just saying 'fake' because it's the safe choice most of the time, so why make something that's so very different that'll definitely bring the 'fake'ers out of the woodwork? LOL

And the 'flatness' of the letters probably refers to the fact that many fake fonts are tall, narrow letter forms- but these are clearly not the same; these are a mix of capital and lower-case, for one thing, and they're nicely formed and of high quality- not like the fake types that aren't- and these are full words if not a full text, whereas the others are single letters. Sometimes people focus a bit much on the very few things they know and don't always take everything into account. Tall, narrow, single letter, capital stamps are a red flag- but aren't necessarily always bad. These are very different. And if the suggestion is that they're not 'right' for Erkennungmarken, which I've read suggested at times, the response is that there's no such thing- one can identify definitely incorrect fonts, i.e., known fakes, but you can't ever say what's 'wrong' for a unit or the Wehrmacht in general- they used thousands of different letter forms- virtually every Kompanie had its own, unique stamps, so there's a large variation. Hell, I have a Panzergrenadier disc with a font that looks like a style from the 70s LOL It's real, but someone simply liked a very stylized letter form. One can only comment on what's right or wrong for a specific Kompanie most of the time and even then stamp sets did change over time (loss, replacement, etc.), so even that's not certain.

Paul's right, the numbers are surprisingly high given the unit's history, but so far as I've seen, none are issued so they might be all stock- although it would have to mean someone was very ambitious; then again if the decision were taken to break from the usual Kompanie roll and go to a Division roll, it does occur immediately that a whole lot more discs would be needed- and my reaction would be we'd better get on it and make a lot so we have what we need for the future...