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SS VT 'Der Fuhrer'

Article about: Please can I have another expert opinion. This time on this one that is for sale on WAF. As much as I try to learn about these I am still bewildered Many thanks Nick

  1. #1

    Default SS VT 'Der Fuhrer'

    Please can I have another expert opinion. This time on this one that is for sale on WAF. As much as I try to learn about these I am still bewildered

    Many thanks

    Nick
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    "In all my years as a soldier, I have never seen men fight so hard." - SS Obergruppenfuhrer Wilhelm Bittrich - Arnhem

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  3. #2

    Default Re: SS VT 'Der Fuhrer'

    This thread seems to have slipped through the cracks Nick.

    I can say I like the wear to the holes and the patina but the individually stamped 'SS VERFUGUNGSTRUPPE' is a curiosity. Can you imagine stamping that out 1000 times over by hand? Perhaps that was the case, I don't know. Anyway, a search has brough up a few DF tags deemed fakes but none match the style of your example which is a good sign. Until you find another similar example with provenance I know i'd be too wary to take a chance.

  4. #3

    Default Re: SS VT 'Der Fuhrer'

    Glenn, thanks for responding mate!

    Sadly it has already been sold

    Nick
    "In all my years as a soldier, I have never seen men fight so hard." - SS Obergruppenfuhrer Wilhelm Bittrich - Arnhem

  5. #4

    Default Re: SS VT 'Der Fuhrer'

    Oh well, plenty more fish in the sea!

  6. #5

    Default Re: SS VT 'Der Fuhrer'

    I don't like it...as Verfugungstruppe is misspelled "Verfugungstpuppe", which somewhat changes the translation to "SS Doll for Special Purposes"..."Puppe" means "Doll"...
    Cheers, Glenn

  7. #6

    Default Re: SS VT 'Der Fuhrer'

    Maybe used the wrong stamp. It happened on my dog tag in the 1970's

    Nick
    "In all my years as a soldier, I have never seen men fight so hard." - SS Obergruppenfuhrer Wilhelm Bittrich - Arnhem

  8. #7
    ?

    Default Re: SS VT 'Der Fuhrer'

    Not sad Nick, I have real doubts about that one; in particular look at how sharp the edges of the supposed 'wear' around the neck cord holes is- a fibre cord makes very smooth marks because it's a soft material, wearing the metal down very slowly; metal files make sharp marks when fakers try to dress up their junk. Also note how the wear isn't symmetrical- that's odd too. I suppose a chain might possibly leave an odd mark, but I really don't know how many men wore their discs on chains. It's just a red flag feature because fakers do try to add the wear sometimes.

    Also I have images of three original ,,Der Führer'' discs and none lists a Kompanie number; in fact only one from the Stab, II. Bataillon has that subunit listed- the other two are just marked SS-,,D.F.''; and note that the quotation marks are present on all three examples. Now granted the two regular ones have Stammrollennummern in the mid-6000s, however it strikes me as odd and problematic for a unit to begin with Kompanie-level rolls and then to switch to a Regiment-level single roll. The Stab example may suggest that did happen- or perhaps just the command sections kept their own- I can't say. The issue of the quotation marks isn't definitely fatal either since there are cases like both the ,,Deutschland'' and ,,Germania'' Regimenter usually didn't have them, but there are rare examples that did. So one can't say for sure it was done at the beginning and then later added. Only if we have a 100% authentic example with a very close Stammrollennummer to the one in question can we properly say what the form should be. For now though the differences are too many and the doubt significant enough that I sure wouldn't have bought that one unless it has some air-tight provenance...
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  9. #8

    Default Re: SS VT 'Der Fuhrer'

    Matt, as always thank you for your detailed 'diagnosis'

    Nick
    "In all my years as a soldier, I have never seen men fight so hard." - SS Obergruppenfuhrer Wilhelm Bittrich - Arnhem

  10. #9
    ?

    Default Re: SS VT 'Der Fuhrer'

    Quote by bigmacglenn1966 View Post
    I don't like it...as Verfugungstruppe is misspelled "Verfugungstpuppe"...
    Actually it's not- that is an 'R' but the front leg is very faint. It actually appears to be a 'P' with an added on little curly bit to form the front 'leg'; notice how the 'leg' on the two clear 'R's aren't in the same position-the top one is further out than the bottom one. The second 'R's 'legs' were stamped very lightly. Errors and substitute or 'composite' aren't necessarily a bad thing- imagine someone stamping long text like that all day, every day and it's easy to see errors creeping in; and if a letter stamp is lost or broken, it makes perfect sense that they'd just have to make do. I have a few examples of the latter myself. And even something like forgetting an Umlaut, which one would expect would be a real faker error turns out not to be so- a while back a bunch of Norwegian volunteer SS-Gebirgsjäger discs were posted and although all were marked properly 'SS-Geb. Jäg. A. u. E. Btl. 6', one was just 'Jag' with no umlaut. They were dug up and the men identified, so I'm sure the discs were authentic- it simply must have been a case of so much stamping that the person just made a small error.

    Unfortunately, that does make it a little tougher to authenticate- now one has to take into account what might be legitimate text flaws as well LOL
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  11. #10

    Default Re: SS VT 'Der Fuhrer'

    The best thing about this hobby is that the learning never ends! Cheers, Glenn

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