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Waffen ss hohenstaufen

Article about: by Paul E Matt i'm only expressing my opinion , to me it looks like the stamps are relatively new on the disc and there appears to be some halo to the 4 , personally i go the other way now a

  1. #11
    ?

    Default Re: Waffen ss hohenstaufen

    Quote by Paul E View Post
    Matt i'm only expressing my opinion , to me it looks like the stamps are relatively new on the disc and there appears to be some halo to the 4 , personally i go the other way now as due to the price that is being demanded for SS Tags the fakers have got cleverer and are willing to invest more in the correct stamps / fonts etc , unfortunately the books available now show them correct designations , i do concede that Hohenstaufen was a Pz Gren Div i failed to spot that in my look at Lexicon !! but the high number i beleived was not correct etc , .

    The real question is would you buy it yourself for me the answer would be no , but that is only my opinion , if you have examples please post them so we can compare,

    cheers

    Paul
    Ah, okay- I wasn't sure if you saw something or knew something about this particular one that I didn't. Indeed it's always tough. I don't see the halo you mention though- usually they're quite obvious, not subtle; it would be especially true here since the unit text is one big stamp so would require a good deal of force to mark so cleanly. Here's the example I had in my database:

    Name:  SS Pz Gren Div Hohenstufen 2.jpg
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    I kept it because it appeared fairly likely to be real because of the intricacy and nature of the one-stamp marking and overall quality (fakes usually aren't very realistic to be sure). The image is dated March 06 so the photo is more than 5 years old now, and if it were fake I'd also have expected to see more of them by now- surely with the expense that would go into making that lovely stamp a faker wouldn't produce one every few years. Also the very different disc 'aging' isn't typical of fakes either- they're usually very similar.

    The quotation marks are the typical German version (and probably others)- if they were the way we're all familiar with would be cause for suspicion, although it isn't unheard-of.

    It is still odd that it's a Division disc- usually it's the Regimenter, etc. that issue discs; and there surely weren't 21000+ men at Division-level (the Kommando). So it's a bit of a mystery- to me it looks right and the features make sense, but it'd be necessary to demonstrate that Hohenstaufen was the only SS-Division to issue discs Divisionally rather than Regimentally. Anyone have an SS-Soldbuch from a member of the Hohenstaufen? The Erkennungsmarke line is great for proving markings are correct...
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

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  3. #12
    ado
    ado is offline
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    Default Re: Waffen ss hohenstaufen

    I like this tag, numbers just look nicely done.
    this tag is being sold together with Joseph Gobbels calling card and his signed note where he is thanking A.H. on making appearance on his birthday party.

    ado

  4. #13
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    Default Re: Waffen ss hohenstaufen

    Quote by Matt L View Post
    Ah, okay- I wasn't sure if you saw something or knew something about this particular one that I didn't. Indeed it's always tough. I don't see the halo you mention though- usually they're quite obvious, not subtle; it would be especially true here since the unit text is one big stamp so would require a good deal of force to mark so cleanly. Here's the example I had in my database:

    Name:  SS Pz Gren Div Hohenstufen 2.jpg
Views: 974
Size:  59.3 KB

    I kept it because it appeared fairly likely to be real because of the intricacy and nature of the one-stamp marking and overall quality (fakes usually aren't very realistic to be sure). The image is dated March 06 so the photo is more than 5 years old now, and if it were fake I'd also have expected to see more of them by now- surely with the expense that would go into making that lovely stamp a faker wouldn't produce one every few years. Also the very different disc 'aging' isn't typical of fakes either- they're usually very similar.

    The quotation marks are the typical German version (and probably others)- if they were the way we're all familiar with would be cause for suspicion, although it isn't unheard-of.

    It is still odd that it's a Division disc- usually it's the Regimenter, etc. that issue discs; and there surely weren't 21000+ men at Division-level (the Kommando). So it's a bit of a mystery- to me it looks right and the features make sense, but it'd be necessary to demonstrate that Hohenstaufen was the only SS-Division to issue discs Divisionally rather than Regimentally. Anyone have an SS-Soldbuch from a member of the Hohenstaufen? The Erkennungsmarke line is great for proving markings are correct...
    Must admit Matt i like the tag you have better than the one shown !! The high number had me perplexed and was another reason i thought The first one bad , as you say i couldn't see how over 21,000 tags would have been issued at Div level especially when the Div was only in existance as a Pz Gren for a short while prior to upgrading from a Panzer Gren Div to a Panzer Div. I always though that as the Div would have been made up of a certain amount of cadre personnel of vets from other units who would retain there original tags plus others who had come through Ersatz Regiment etc that high Div issue numbers like this couldn't be right ?? I have seen that Hohenstaufen as a Pz Gren Div had just over 19,000 men and the bulk of the men were RAD Volunteers but as you say is Hohenstaufen a Divison that only issued tags Divisionally ??

    A soldbuch hopefully can answer this question !! Was it just Hohenstaufen when they were a Panzer Gren Div that issued tags in this type ??

    Tags can be a complicated business like everything else but i love learning !!!

    cheers

    Paul
    The gates of hell were opened and we accepted the invitation to enter" 26/880 Lance Sgt, Edward Dyke. 26th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers , ( 3rd Tyneside Irish )

    1st July 1916

    Thought shall be the harder , heart the keener,
    Courage the greater as our strength faileth.
    Here lies our leader ,in the dust of his greatness.
    Who leaves him now , be damned forever.
    We who are old now shall not leave this Battle,
    But lie at his feet , in the dust with our leader

    House Carles at the Battle of Hastings

  5. #14

    Default Re: Waffen ss hohenstaufen

    What a great discussion guys! The high stammrollen number had me worrried but I look forward to a conclusion if and when a solbuch is located.

  6. #15
    ?

    Default Re: Waffen ss hohenstaufen

    Well there's no wear or a blood group on the disc- the latter also pointing to it being real as fakers pretty much always add them- which could mean they're unissued stock; although it would have been pretty ambitious to make so many thousands expecting to use them 'someday' LOL

    I should clarify one thing though- when I say 'at Division level' I mean the real Division command- the small number of men who really are the Division; I have a couple of these from Infanterie-Divisionen and they're the only discs marked to a specific Division I know are real. But the key feature of those is they're specifically denoted 'Kommando'- this one isn't so it actually has nothing suggesting it is the Division command and thus the high number isn't out of place. The marking suggests it's for every member of the Division so the high number does fit.

    When I say 'issued Divisionally' I mean as the disc suggests- and as, for example, the Kriegsmarine did- there were no subunit discs, the Division issued them to everyone so there was only one central roll. For this to be true it would neccessitate there being no discs known from any subunits.

    So overall this is partly a case of being too odd to be fake to me LOL I couldn't say it's real of course, but I lean toward that position because of its characteristics and nature. But that's just me- were I still collecting I still wouldn't pay much for one because it can't be shown to certainly be real; it only has a chance to be and chaces have to be cheap
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  7. #16
    ?

    Default Re: Waffen ss hohenstaufen

    Quote by Matt L View Post
    Well there's no wear or a blood group on the disc- the latter also pointing to it being real as fakers pretty much always add them- which could mean they're unissued stock; although it would have been pretty ambitious to make so many thousands expecting to use them 'someday' LOL

    I should clarify one thing though- when I say 'at Division level' I mean the real Division command- the small number of men who really are the Division; I have a couple of these from Infanterie-Divisionen and they're the only discs marked to a specific Division I know are real. But the key feature of those is they're specifically denoted 'Kommando'- this one isn't so it actually has nothing suggesting it is the Division command and thus the high number isn't out of place. The marking suggests it's for every member of the Division so the high number does fit.

    When I say 'issued Divisionally' I mean as the disc suggests- and as, for example, the Kriegsmarine did- there were no subunit discs, the Division issued them to everyone so there was only one central roll. For this to be true it would neccessitate there being no discs known from any subunits.

    So overall this is partly a case of being too odd to be fake to me LOL I couldn't say it's real of course, but I lean toward that position because of its characteristics and nature. But that's just me- were I still collecting I still wouldn't pay much for one because it can't be shown to certainly be real; it only has a chance to be and chaces have to be cheap
    Ah yes i see what you mean about the Divisional Kommando and that the actual Divison issue tags could have a high number on them , as far as i know the Estonian Divison also had similar Divisonal tags but i can't recall seeing such as high number on them of course that doesn't mean that they aren't out there , i remember reading somehting that stated only Hohenstaufen , the Estonian Div and one other Div had tags like this. I must admit i di find the discs fascinating due to the differences across units !!!

    cheers

    Paul
    The gates of hell were opened and we accepted the invitation to enter" 26/880 Lance Sgt, Edward Dyke. 26th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers , ( 3rd Tyneside Irish )

    1st July 1916

    Thought shall be the harder , heart the keener,
    Courage the greater as our strength faileth.
    Here lies our leader ,in the dust of his greatness.
    Who leaves him now , be damned forever.
    We who are old now shall not leave this Battle,
    But lie at his feet , in the dust with our leader

    House Carles at the Battle of Hastings

  8. #17
    ?

    Default Re: Waffen ss hohenstaufen

    Right- the 20. Estonian is the only other one I can think of, but the only photo I have is of a disc with the Stammrollennummer 450- so not very high either- and I've never been able to prove it's definitely real; it looks quite good, but it's in my database as a possible. Interestingly though it's also a curved possibly single stamp for the whole text. So while extremely uncommon, there may indeed have been a couple of Divisionen that issued discs from the top...
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  9. #18
    ?

    Default Re: Waffen ss hohenstaufen

    hello

    i 'am new on this forum i permit myself to reactivate this former thread

    here's an hohenstaufen dog tag i found myself many years ago( in fact it has been my first collectible!!) in a wood near the village of Chambois,in Normandy ( Falaise Caen Trun) in the so called "couloir de la mort" ( death corridor"), it is made of an underminate stainless metal( i 've just washed it with water)
    clearly something has been volontary erased between "PZ" and "div", i think letters for the abbreviation of grenadier, probably in 1943
    reverse is blank

    i am not sure about many things in the collection world, but i am sure this one is original!! and it seems very similar to the others posted in this thread

    hope this helps
    regards
    christophe

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by bavf; 08-15-2012 at 11:16 AM.

  10. #19

    Default Re: Waffen ss hohenstaufen

    Welcome on the forum! Thanks for the information.
    Cheers.
    Michel

  11. #20
    ?

    Default Re: Waffen ss hohenstaufen

    That's just excellent Christophe- indeed it matches the other one perfectly and it seems that they started a new roll when they became SS-Panzer-Division ,,Hohenstaufen'' and yes, it seems they just somehow removed the 'Gren.' part of the stamp when the Division title changed- very nice.
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

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