Case in point:
Case in point:
Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam!
.................................................. ..
Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam!
Hello,
Anglo-saxon members are usually concerned with textbook examples and regulations.
Whilst this can be valid for British or US troops (countries enjoying a high degree of industrialization and skilled labor force), this cannot be always applied to other countries' uniforms.
The USSR industry was rather disrupted after the early losses of territory. Furthermore, the logistic effort to supply a vast advancing army over a ravaged territory in the later years of the war was enormous.
I do not think that front line servicement enjoyed much supply during the war.
I am professionally very aquainted with industrial planning and logistic constraints in industrial supply chain so I can easily imagine that:
1- Many factories experienced shortages of raw materials: It is easy to understand that they will use whatever on hand before stopping production (US HBT, pre-war or civilian fabrics, different lend-lease types of cloth...).
2- Front line soldiers used whatever replacements they could find (or capture!), specially as cotton pocketless tunics should have been more available and cheaper to replace that the standard officers' ones.
3-Ater 1944 (see group pics of 1945, widely available on the net and ebay) there seems to be a trend to standarize production through manufaturing mainly the pocketed tunic (some regulations exist on that sense) which could be issued to everybody without distinction.
4-Quality differs as probably big well established textile factories (such as krasni Voin, for example) could maintain a standard sequence of procurement and manufacturing routines due to skilled workers and pre-war regular procurement flows. This can be compared with some small artels where probably young girls in their early teens and with bare training needed to churn out items over the clock in some forlorn place in Central Asia. This considering also taylor made or modified items made by local or company tailors as the Red Army advanced. This may account for having or not piping in Gyms or breeches or slight differences in the trousers's cut or the almost infinite variations in pogoni, which are common themes in this forum.
Caps seem to be more industrially produced by well established facturies, so style is usually more consistent.
5- Due to these circumstances markings are not present on many articles, either to the need for rushing them to the front either because they were tailor made.
All this may account also for the dreadful condition in many original items: because of the lack of replacements, they were used until they felt apart.
Also particular pics are usually more telling than official Novosti images as these ones needed to pass censorship.
I've been collecting also Spanish Civil War items since I was a child and all the aforementioned points are perfectly applicable: Relaxation of regulations, mixing officers' and other ranks' items, multiple variations, foreign material, outdated material reimpressed into service... and probably other fellow collectors aquainted with the US Civil War will agree with me.
So I like to be guided by identified examples from good sources, regulations (Red Army regulations of the era seem to be somewhat ambiguous regarding patterns and materials) and pictures.
All this said, I think this is a good post and forum.
Really salient points raised , there is so much variation in wartime soviet made Uniforms , explained by all the above. Most of my early period Gymnastiorki have no markings at all , also if they did they have washed out. Headgear is easier to research as are often well marked.
Regarding pogoni . Hardly any on the collecting market I would say haven't been matched up with a blouse after the war . Unless its come from the family and not via collectors and dealers. A lot of Gymnastiorkas were worn post war as everyday clothes and of course once not serving any more the pogoni were taken off .
Hi Rob,
which model you are talking , 35 or 43.
Ps ASR for forum members , pictures are often more explicit than words
I digress as was wrong to say wartime uniforms were not usually dated !
Going through what I still own , The cotton Issue ones generally have stampings during the wartime era ( these are 43 patt) The Woollen versions , usually officerorigin tended I believe to have sewn in labels but these are often cut away . Ive never seen markings on lend lease wool versions. Most ive seen of Other ranks versions don't have elbow reinforcement , though I post an exception , a 1945 dated pocketless classic 1943 pattern blouse in very light chino cotton (maybe US origin) . This is in a large size 5 and from a manufacturer called 'M 8 Marta' .
Nice gymnasterka............it merits additional pictures.
Regards.
Philippe
Thanks Phillippe . Ive had this one over a decade now , Its one of my favourites. Il post pictures on a torso in daylight tomorrow
Hello all,
This particular gymnasterka seems still complying with the points summarized above:
- Marked F-KA, which seems to be an industrialized factory, hence the stamp, but I am sure some forum members can show other examples without stamps 8unfortunately I don't have apocketless gym in my collection... never come accross an affordable authentic one in good condition).
- As such, quality seems to be good (if not for the stamp I am sure someone will point out it is early post-war German manufature for the sole fact that quality is good).
- As for industrial manufacture they have the ability / custom to comply exactly with the standard issued patterns (hence the elbow reinforcements).
It seems to be a very nice wartime example. As pocketless Gyms were discontinued shortly after the war it can show us very interesting manufacturing patterns.
I think it would be nice to have some close-ups of:
- Fabric quality.
- Lining reinforcements under arms.
... Sorry (my computer closed unexpectedly), and shoulder boards attachements.
As these are the areas usually overlooked in repros and very telling for the advanced collector.
Thank you Rob for sharing this good item with us.
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