German helmet help please

[crossofiron]

hello there folks. I am wanting to get an up to date valuation on a helmet and am finding very conflicting prices/opinions on the internet!

i have checked regimentals and a couple of other sites, but wondered if anyone on here could help out.

to my knowledge, the helmet is a M16/17, pretty minty, all pads/straps intact. Any help, advice, links would be very much apreciated.

thanks

max

[thiele-lund]

Dear Max,

please post side views and details of the interior. How is it stamped?

Yours,

Olaf

[Georg]

Nice helmet, from your photos it does appear to be a M16/17 shell, is the band leather or metal. I am not sure about the chin strap or the liner pads (if you don’t hold things in your hands it is hard to tell from photos). Are there any marks, do you have any photos of the other side of the pads? The plaque of course is a add on (I can’t make it out); more photos would be help fully. A valuation on a helmet in our worldwide market place is hard, without the plaque, this helmet would go between 200 to 300 US dollars (the plaque would be a minus).

[pjm]

The value is increased by its association with a great battle indicated by the plaque on the helmet's visor interior. Depending on how it was acquired, perhaps a realtionship with one of the involved English units can be established.

Here's info on Thiepval:

Thiepval was one of the largest villages on the Somme in 1914, dominated by a large chateau (left) which employed many people on the chateau estate lands. Fighting reached here in September 1914, when the French clashed with the Germans, who took the village and its dominant ridge. They would hold it for the next two years. British troops arrived in the Thiepval sector in the summer of 1915, when the 51st (Highland) Division relieved French territorials in the nearby Thiepval Wood. It was then a 'quiet' sector of the battlefields. The 36th (Ulster) Division moved into the sector in the Spring of 1916, with the 32nd Division alongside them in Thiepval Wood and south of the village. They would remain here until the beginning of the Battle of the Somme. On 1st July 1916 the 36th (Ulster) Division attacked the German positions around the Schwaben Redoubt, and the 32nd Division advanced on Thiepval Ridge and the Leipzig Salient. While the Ulstermen initially did well, capturing the Schwaben by 8.30am, German counter-attacks threw them back with heavy losses. The German 180th Regiment threw the attacks of the Salford Pals and Newcastle Commercials back at Thiepval Ridge, and the HLI battalions and 11th Borders (Lonsdales) were also only able to get a foothold in the Leipzig Salient. Losses on this day were 5,104 in the Ulster Division and 3,949 in the 32nd Division.

Fighting continued, with the 49th (West Riding) Division playing a prominent role over the next few months. On 26th September 1916 General Sir Ivor Maxe's 18th (Eastern) Division took the village following a terrific bombardment and the use of tanks, and tactics developed from experiences in the earlier Somme fighting. Units from the 39th Division got a foothold in the Schwaben Redoubt, and finally took it on 14th October when the 4/5th Black Watch, 1/1st Cambridgeshires and 17th KRRC cleared the Redoubt of Germans.

[Georg]

I would agree with you if it was documented that it had an association with a great battle, the value would increased. However the drilling and attaching a plaque is not documentation. Without the documented, it appears to be a nice M16/17 helmet shell with a plaque which was added at a later date. I would not call the pad and liner or chin strap with/out better photos.

[1918Militaria]

Better photos are needed showing the true color of the helmet. The liner is an M16 type. The Chin strap is of the spiked helmet version and most likely is a after the fact addition. Looks too good to be true so I suspect a reproduction chin strap. The Liner cord is post war. I doubts about the liner pads.

Mike

[thiele-lund]

Dear all,

indeed, the leather of the chin-strap looks rather thin compared to what you usually get to see. But age and wear can have curious effects.

Max, are there any traces of rings around those holes of the liner pads where the white string/cord goes through? There shouldn't be on a German made liner, you'll find these frequently on Austrian made liners - which wouldn't fit the "Thiepval" plaquette - and on faked liners of Swiss M18 or M41 origin. (Swiss liner pads are often used to "restore" Imperial German helmets.) From the photo you supplied the liner looks right, though. Have a look for stamps on the liner pads, as well as inside the brim. A maker's stamp is inside the left brim near the Knopf 91 holding the chin-strap, sometimes you'll find a batch stamp inside the dome, and sometimes there are also ink stamps inside the back brim or the dome.

I think it quite possible that the plaquette commemorates the battle, i. e. that this helmet is a sort of souvenir of a British veteran.

Yours,

Olaf

[crossofiron]

many thanks for your help and replies, and sorry for the delay in replying!

i have now sold the helmet. but thanks anyway.

max