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"I don’t think lack wear to the paint is trivial particularly with WW1 helmets as this is one of the major things that can be studied for originality as opposed to WW2 helmets where other considerations such as decals ect come into play. It’s all about patina and I still don’t see it on this helmet." Andrew.
That is the key point. Most 100 year old helmets will display a level of wear and decay in keeping with it's age. Yes, very occassionally we might find an example that has been carried on a cushion and locked in a box for a century, but this is not the norm and appraisals aways needs to weight the helmet based on what normally is expected. A remarkably fresh looking patina is suspicious and while a boxed cushion queen is always a possibility, probability would tell us it is most likely not.
There are many red flags for this one. But I like the photo of the lug with barely a scratch and a black painted line almost worn off just under it, why the difference in wear? In my opinion (that's all) the black lines were painted lightly to suggest wear and age.
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07-22-2019 02:00 AM
# ADS
Circuit advertisement
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I've looked at this on and off very briefly over the past two days...never commented because I really didn't have time to study it as I've been so busy.
So after a long day at the beach today I took a longer look.
All I can say is that it took me way too long to form an opinion. When we have to debate, justify, point, counterpoint, etc., for me, that means I would pass it by.
"Please", Thank You" and proper manners appreciated
My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them
"Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)
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Some more pictures that might help, and perhaps I should clarify my position on lack of wear to paint... there are examples about that have only suffered wear to the sharp edges, the rest of the paint remaining largely intact. Age in itself does not cause paint to wear off, it is the handling and every day knocks and bangs of service life which are the usual culprit of damage. Many helmets which were taken and brought home as a war trophy were shown to friends and family, and tales of battle told to relatives who had little comprehension of the reality of trench warfare. Once the excitement had died down and the interest in the helmet had disappeared, it would either end up stored away in an outbuilding or in the loft and then forgotten about. Then after grandad - or great grandad had died, it might resurface as the house was cleared. In such an environment where it has lain undisturbed for god knows how many years, the paint is hardly likely to suffer any further damage.
The image of the civilian workers refurbishing the helmets should be examined closely... two of those on the bench appear to have no liner pins in the shell and the young boy in the image has his paintbrush on the INSIDE of the helmet. I have owned WW1 German helmets which have been repainted inside, and I have owned them with virtually no damage to the paintwork. The photographs of ShapedSteels helmet are not exactly what you would call the best, but going off what I can see, I am still reasonably sure that it is a good one. Click on images to enlarge.
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The first thing that caught my eye from the images was the bathtub sized helmet that the older man to the far left is holding. Perhaps a size 70. I can’t actually say either way if the young boys hand is inside the shell or not.
The black camo lines are suggestive of the helmet being camo’d as part of the directive of 1918. If it was in service in 1918 I would still expect to see more damage/wear unless it was never used. It doesn’t have a single mark on it and I can’t go past the lack of any wear to the front of the visor and lugs. There are WW1 German helmets that have little to no wear but I have not yet seen any camos that are lacking in wear. To me it just doesn’t look 100 years old but again that’s just my opinion.
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by
AndyM35
The first thing that caught my eye from the images was the bathtub sized helmet that the older man to the far left is holding. Perhaps a size 70. I can’t actually say either way if the young boys hand is inside the shell or not.
The black camo lines are suggestive of the helmet being camo’d as part of the directive of 1918. If it was in service in 1918 I would still expect to see more damage/wear unless it was never used. It doesn’t have a single mark on it and I can’t go past the lack of any wear to the front of the visor and lugs. There are WW1 German helmets that have little to no wear but I have not yet seen any camos that are lacking in wear. To me it just doesn’t look 100 years old but again that’s just my opinion.
I once had an M18 which was painted in black and green, the helmet itself was absolutely immaculate - as was the green factory finish. But the black paint was oil paint, and it was flaking off like a bad dose of dandruff. My WW1 collection has been greatly reduced from what it was, and I now only have just one M17 helmet... not a trace of camouflage to be seen, and the green paint is difficult to pick out from the very dark patina. The liner is a bit chewed, and there is only a small portion of chinstrap remaining, a completely untouched helmet. It is rather strange how opinions change on the forum, I once posted an M16 camouflaged helmet that was painted without the black dividing lines... and the inside had been repainted too. I always had my doubts about its originality, but forum members passed it with flying colours... not that this eased my doubts though!
Cheers,
Steve
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Well Steve the helmet you post in #23 does actually give a good example of patina with a painted helmet where there is not a lot a scratches and wear. For what we see is the mottled effect of underlying rust coming through slightly colouring the paint in mottles and blotches. This you wouldn't see with recent new paint, but it is indicative of old paint. So I wouldn't doubt the paint on that helmet is old even though physical wear is minimal.
Very often those stored helmets may not have picked up decades of scratches from the hands of grandchildren's playing, but they suffered from dampness and poor ventilation so some rust induced patina can guide us in determining age of paint. So scratches and paint wear are not the only indicators of paint age.
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Depot refurbished helmets generally also had the number 64 stencilled in the rear skirt such as in my example which the OP’s helmet does not appear to have.
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Hello everyone,
I wasn't behind my computer today, so I've been unable to respond.
I see allot of interesting responses which I'd like to respond to but I'll respond to just a few, however I appreciate everyone that took their time to leave their opinion.
I've not seen a single rushed critique with no thought behind it in this thread which I'm thankful for.
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by
AndyM35
By the way ShapedSteel, I hope my comments don't come across as too harsh and I take no pleasure from saying what I've said and its just my opinion. I've been tripped up and lost money on fakes as have most in this group as it's part of the learning experience and indeed the seller may be very nice and have sold the helmet with good intentions.
Hello Andrew,
Don't worry, they're not too harsh. I greatly appreciate that people take their time to help me identify possible fakes. The last thing I want is having a fake on display thinking that it is the real thing!
So far this discussion has been great, with both sides making well thought out arguments and opinions.
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AndyM35
Jim, what do you think about the wear or lack thereof on the front of the visor, chinstrap posts and the vent lugs? I would have thought that a complete lack of wear was a little unusual?
Shapedsteel, you could also post it on the German Helmet Wallhalla site as there are a large number of members that are collectors of Imperial German steel helmets.
Attachment 1325116Attachment 1325117
by
AndyM35
The first thing that caught my eye from the images was the bathtub sized helmet that the older man to the far left is holding. Perhaps a size 70. I can’t actually say either way if the young boys hand is inside the shell or not.
The black camo lines are suggestive of the helmet being camo’d as part of the directive of 1918. If it was in service in 1918 I would still expect to see more damage/wear unless it was never used. It doesn’t have a single mark on it and I can’t go past the lack of any wear to the front of the visor and lugs. There are WW1 German helmets that have little to no wear but I have not yet seen any camos that are lacking in wear. To me it just doesn’t look 100 years old but again that’s just my opinion.
Hello Andrew,
Thank you for the suggestion, I'll probably post it on German Helmet Wallhalla tomorrow.
About the paint, I'm sorry about the lack of quality in the images, right now I just have my phone's camera to work with.
The helmet shows wear, like scratches here and there. When I'm looking at it, in my hands, the paint doesn't look new to me at all. My camera cannot really capture the age, but in my hands it looks like it is a 100 years old. But of course there is a chance that a very skilled faker could have worked on this one. I'll try tomorrow to get get some better pictures of the paint and wear, I hope that they'll help you all.
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