Gents, having read the link given by Ade it is IMO that this helmet should not have this dome stamp, as I understand it to be a TR period regulation. It does say on the same site that so succesful was the M18 cut-out helmet, that a firm (name not known) was commisioned to remake this type of helmet in size 66 in the late to mid 1920's, to supplement existing WW1 supplies, German-Helmets.com, however this is still prior to the TR period.
In Ludwig Baer's 3 volume German language treatise on steel helmets there is a picture of a cut out that has non stepped vent lugs, which would suggest that it was not a size 64, but i don't read German so I do not know what he wrote about this particular example. That helmet would probably be a size 66, and that would be consistent with what you have said. Obviously, I have never seen one, but they probably did exist, and I would love to have one on my shelf. Regarding WWI vintage combat ear cut out pieces, all seem to agree that the only original ones are marked ET64. Some were pressed into service as DD transitionals before the development of the M35, and still more were reissued as SD's around 1940. They are really cool helmets, and a must have for serious collectors. By the way, can you link us to the site that discussed the inter war commercial production of these interesting helmets? Thanks, Jim G.
Flash, while I was responding to these posts you posted your pictures. I do not like your piece, there is not the requisite flare to the apex of the cut out. It looks to be a modern fake. I couldn't tell whether the liner was good, but I wouldn't spend the money on this one. I will try to post a few pictures of my imperial example and my SD transitional to show you what to look for with these helmets. Jim G.
Here are a few pictures that I hope show the flare that you should see with an original ET 64 ear cut out. The sd transitional is missing the 2 front early brass flat head split pins. Does anyone have 2 originals that would be available for purchase? Thanks in advance. Cheers, Jim G.
helmet2id, thanks for showing...a pair of super cut-outs ! (for me..the Imperial one is most desirable) ....the shape and flare is most evident, I agree with Ade on the helmet that started the thread...
Now this thread is getting good! ;-)
Sorry, this will be a long post. infin1ty92, I apologize for hi-jacking your post! What are the chances that I would find a lid like this just a month(or so) after reading your post? It freaked me out a bit.
So... the pictures weren't clear enough to confirm(originally), but are now good enough to debunk? Hmmmmm... No offense!, but I'm not completely convinced... yet.
Here's a great fleabay example that's going for $1900US with no liner whatsoever. German M18 cut-out helmet marked ET64 - eBay (item 330448203178 end time Jul-09-10 14:53:40 PDT)
There are some great closeup pics of this lid, but the bio is suspiciously sparse... Is this a fake too?
When I asked the store owner where she had acquired this piece, she could not remember specifics, only stating that she had several brokers. I've been into military antiques since I was a kid, but I am still a newbee... From the stampings on the fleabay lid I now realize I was looking in the wrong place for the manufacturer stamps "ET 64" for example. I was looking up by the liner frame... too high.
Gents, having read the link given by Ade it is IMO that this helmet should not have this dome stamp, as I understand it to be a TR period regulation. It does say on the same site that so succesful was the M18 cut-out helmet, that a firm (name not known) was commisioned to remake this type of helmet in size 66 in the late to mid 1920's, to supplement existing WW1 supplies, http://www.german-helmets.com/HEER%2...%20Helmets.htm, however this is still prior to the TR period.
Gentlemen... the plot thickens!! See attached image. What I failed to mention is the M1931 liner size... you can barely make it out in the pic but it was a very clear "59". As my grandfather used to say: "Put THAT in your pipes and smoke it!"!! :-)
That helmet would probably be a size 66, and that would be consistent with what you have said. Obviously, I have never seen one, but they probably did exist, and I would love to have one on my shelf.
My Quist M40 is stamped 64 and it has a 57 liner. The size 66 would have a 59 liner, right?
This is looking more like a "Win-Win" situation for me in my opinion. If it's fake, I have a VERY ambitious fake to use as an example. It's still an M18 original that's been faked, right?
Personally, I don't see the differences in the apex that you've both mentioned. The store owner has agreed to send me some more detailed pics that she will take with her digital camera. I plan to entice her to do this by "discussing" making her an offer for both this lid AND a set of German WW1 field binoculars she's also selling. I think they are Oigee binocs. I definitely saw "Berlin" on the left side and "1910" on the right. They are in "fair" condition, so I think I can talk her down(this is a diff thread tho...).
You wanna know what I think?... I think you are both calling every antique store in eastern washington state... trying to steal my cut-out! Well ha!, she doesn't take credit cards!(she really doesn't!). If I leave right now, I'll be there in six hours... MY HELMET!! MINE!!!
JUST KIDDING!
(sorry! it's late and I've just arrived home from holiday... a very long drive.)
Thanks to all. This is why I love this collecting hobby I've acquired.
-Flash
flash developer , the reason why this helmet has been ''debunked'' from your photograph provided, is because we now have an original to compare with...as I said in my original statement, to me it hinges on the ''cut out'' shape....see attached photos, as you can see your helmet is too severe, (a trademark of an altered m18) the Imperial M18 flows ....let the photos do the talking !...still its down to you if you wish to drive 6 hours and pick up the helmet, these are our humble opinions.....
Flash, The ebay piece that you mentioned in your last post appears to be good. You now have 3 to compare to the one that you are considering. It is up to you to decide. The liner in the one you are considering also gives me some pause, as the stitching in most (but not all) period M31 liners usually goes all the way up one of the rear fingers almost to the hole where the draw sting connects all of the fingers. Also, if it is in a size 64 shell and is not mismarked it probably shouldn't fit in a size 64 imperial shell. In my experience, WWI shells are a little tighter than WWII shells. For example, it is sometimes hard to fit a size 56 M31 liner into a size 64 M16 shell. Your prospective purchase looks to have stepped vents, which would make it a 64. A 59 cm liner should not fit into that shell if it is a 64. I am east of the Mississippi, and probably can't get to the shop before you (just kidding!) so take your time before you rush into this one - $150 isn't a ton of money, but it is $150. Remember, if it is too good to be true, it probably is. Just my 2 cents. Jim G.
oradour,
You missed my joke about driving six hours to buy a helmet that everyone is trying to "steal". I'm not expecting this to be original. The whole idea is to research, talk to others and determine the truth. I'm a bit disturbed by the burden of proof/disproof put on some grainy cell phone pics.
So the angle of the pics doesn't matter? If one measures the length of the skirt to the liner(in the pics, not the lids themselves) it's pretty obvious that a measurement like that depends on the angle(Yaw, Pitch, Roll) of the helmet, as well as the position/centering of the camera.
Well here's three different helmets, the bottom being the fleabay lid, that you didn't comment on. You're all absolutely sure about the "cut-out shapes"? I'm beginning to understand what you say you are seeing, but as to it being so obvious...
I'm sorry, but my deductive reasoning alarm is going off. I'm sure you all are thinking "sour grapes" on old Flash's part... but that's just not the case. Honest.
It seems the correct approach would have been to acquire several more detailed images... but I could be wrong. So who would I send this lid to for verification? German-helmets.com? Any other good appraisers? I have it on hold until Wednesday, with no obligation to buy.
Re: Value of German M18 ear cut out helmets?
by oradour
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