badges etc.

[Stewy S]

The Assmann Flak of yours Andrew can also be found sporting a Juncker maker mark & occasionally a sheet metal hinge. Stewy S

[Andrew]

a junker mark? on the flak ? unless this site is dead wrong, mine matches almost exactly. all i ask is that you look. i'll post the pics here though. notice the die flaw on mine, and look close at the one posted now. its hard to see but it matches. these were not made exactly the same through the war.
as to the RO with the exception of the pin i'm not seeing much difference and i still think it depends on the period it was made and parts on hand. if not assembled by a subcontracter. john already posted two vareations. i'm not going to argue the deumer, i'm happy with it.
the Assmann observer there is no question at all they did stamp in the A on early ones.
but here are the flak pics. an early one with stamped logo and a later one mathing exactly to mine in hardware and markings.
link to pic site PLEASE LOOK FIRST. i can only say that if what i try to show as proof wont even be looked at, then there is little point. we all know even experts are not perfict. so every one should be open to at least looking.
thank you andrew

Gallery1

[Andrew]

looking back at the posts you will notice all of the deumer RO badges are different in some respects. different hinges, how the bird is cut out, and the top of the swaz cut out on one but not the others, even the way the rivits are attached one is set pretty deep compared to the others. the last one is late war zinc. mine is an earlyer version not made of zink. we can compare apples and oranges all day. i would rather see a dozen examples of accepted badges than just one used as an example for all that were made.
on the assmnn flack john shows with the 2 A's still looks like mine. except the hinge. but mine matches the second one. note the A's are in slightly different places. there was more than one die for these through out he war.
andrew
sorry if i seem a bit passonate about this, but i'll provide enough proof to prove i'm right. but i'm still open to being proven wrong. but just saying its bad is not good enough.

[Andrew]

ok just to get the pictures closer together for an easer view.
first is my flak A on wing and back.
second badge is an early tombak with stamped in logo.
the 2 flak's john posted.
and a mid war assmann matching mine. they are slightly different. can only one type be original ?
you just cant compare early mid and late war pieces and expect them to be exactly the same.

the Deumer badges. all 3 show differences in some respect. is only one good ?
i'm only doing this to show the differences in manufacture. if any of you have ever worked in a factory. you know quality can vary depending on the day and the worker . and while the germans did have great quality items for most of the war. parts did change as did dies to stamp them out.
i hope the pictures help others .
andrew
would love to see other examples of the ones shown.

[Stewy S]

Andrew,i stand corrected after a proper look the Flak IS ok. Sorry mate. Stewy S

[Andrew]

Hi Stewy,
thank you for taking another look.
i'm only interested in honesty. and not to discourage collectors from good badges they might come across, just because they are not exactly like another one they might have seen. they need to see the good ones and the bad ones to tell the difference.
any opinion on stamped in Assmann logo's ?
andrew

[drdata]

Andrew, a good thread and good points.

I'm all for a spirited debate regarding authenticity. In the end the worth of something depends on what someone is willing to pay. The more that think something is right, the better the chance you can later sell quickly and at profit.

This is the issue wrt TR badges. Its my opinion that there are just too many fakes, some done by jewelers (Floch), which continue to fool even experienced collectors. Most acknowledge that few reference books do not have a fake or too falsely documented as real.

All this creates paranoia, and for me a desire to stay away from that I can never know well enough. Ground dug, or with bullet proof provenance, perhaps, but former is "dirty" and later is too pricey.

Given all the uncertainty I can see where folks might want to circle their wagon around a few specific examples that are 100% known good, and then use those to judge all others by. The problem here, is as you pointed out. Natural and legit variations are claimed bad.

Some say all this makes for better educated more discerning collectors. Perhaps. I feel it scares folks away. I have a wife, kids, and a profession that is not related to gun shows or militaria, and I know when I'm in over my head, so I'm off badges. Even if the item is good, too much chance it will be suspected for some reason which then taints the object and removes value while also implanting doubt.

Regards

[Andrew]

Thanks for the responce drdata,
i think your right about circling the wagons around only the best examples, and not dealing with the rest that were made. at the time LDO items were considerd as reproductions. there were private buy's, jewlers copies made. should they be considerd as fakes? or just what they are.
there is some great information out there, but you have to read it and not just look at the pictures. one of the sites clearly stated that these are the best examples, not the variations.
the site's also state that Assman logo's were Stamped in or Raised. i tried to show sites that state and show this, but you can only lead a horse to water.
collectors need to understand that not all badges by the same maker are carbon copies.
i wish other folks that own observer badges by Assmann would show them.
it has been my experence that you can't go by pin alone. if everything else on the badge stands up to an original, and the hardware, though different, IF it is war time produced hardware seen on other badges, then i think it must be considderd as a possable variation. and given a much closer look. just as you cant judge a badge by it's pin alone.
i hate to beat a dead horse. but the truth is important. a STAMPED in logo on an Assman, does not make it bad, nore does a RAISED logo. look around at what you can find, and then decide. i'm not asking any one to take my word for anything. all i can do is point you in the direction's i have found.
andrew