Need help I.D.ing these disks

**jimdvan** · 04-27-2012, 04:13 PM

#1 I have no idea
#2 seems to be; 2nd Pioneer, Reserve or replacement, 9th battalion, blood tpye B then the I.D. number
I picked these up a couple of days ago from the family of an old collector.

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 04-27-2012 04:13 PM

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**jimdvan** · 04-27-2012, 06:14 PM

So far the best I can find on the 9th Pioneer was that it was attached to the 409th Infantry Division. Am I on the right track?

**Matt L** · 04-28-2012, 03:24 AM

Hi Jim,

Welcome to the forum. You have the second one mostly right- it's 2. Kompanie, Pionier-Ersatz-Bataillon 9 (2nd company pioneer replacement battalion 9), but it wasn't attached to any Division- it's a replacement unit so stationed in Germany, supplying replacement troops to usually a number of different field units; in this case Pionier-Bataillon 9 was one of them but so was 15, 48 and many others. Pionier-Bataillon 9 was part of the 9. Infanterie-Division so whatever reference you found that said it was the 409. Infanterie-Division is mistaken- I don't even find that there was a 409. ID actually.

The 'HL' disc is not certain so far as I know- the only suggestion I've ever read is that it stands for 'Mobiliserungs-Haupt-Liste', although why that wouldnt' be 'MHL' I don't get. the 4126 is suggested to be a unit number, but what kind- who knows? In this case it might not matter because the '3' in the serial number looks very much like a known fake type so the disc might not be real. If you could post a close-up, I'm sure I can tell you for certain.

**jimdvan** · 04-28-2012, 01:00 PM

Great, thanks. I'll post a close-up of #1 today or tomorrow.

**jimdvan** · 04-28-2012, 06:59 PM

Here's more photos

**Matt L** · 04-30-2012, 03:01 PM

I'm afraid that does appear to be the same weird, squashed-top '3' that's commonly seen on fakes:

And it turns out I happened to find I have a photo of what appears to be a real disc marked 'HL 4126':

It's considerably different-looking and it's one that has all the right features- letter and number forms, patina, wear, even residue from the neck cord between the holes at the top. It's not unheard-of for units to change stamp sets, and the significant difference between the serial numbers on yours and this one leaves a good deal of time for a change, but the fake-form '3' and that weird extra '7' on yours really do simply suggest yours isn't real- unfortunately.

**jimdvan** · 04-30-2012, 03:33 PM

by Matt L

I'm afraid that does appear to be the same weird, squashed-top '3' that's commonly seen on fakes:

And it turns out I happened to find I have a photo of what appears to be a real disc marked 'HL 4126':

It's considerably different-looking and it's one that has all the right features- letter and number forms, patina, wear, even residue from the neck cord between the holes at the top. It's not unheard-of for units to change stamp sets, and the significant difference between the serial numbers on yours and this one leaves a good deal of time for a change, but the fake-form '3' and that weird extra '7' on yours really do simply suggest yours isn't real- unfortunately.

Well, if its real, great. If not, then I don't have a lot in it. I got them both in a collection of stuff that is authentic for a really good price so this one is a freebee.
What does Mobiliserungs-Haupt-Liste translate to? A fellow on another forum thought the HL may have been for some kind of Luftwaffe unit.

There is a third one I got in all the stuff marked Das Reich but even to my untrained eye it was obviously a fake. I confrimed such on this site; the "a" and the "r" were the typical fake letters.

**Matt L** · 04-30-2012, 03:55 PM

Well good Jim, because I don't think it is real- there'd have to be some pretty solid proof to explain the '3' and the difference from the far better example.

Mobiliserungshauptliste means mobilization main list- presumably a central list of units each of which would have its own roll number, although what kinds of units I have no idea. The mobilization part does suggest military, however the German military usually used multiple word descriptors and numbers, not just numbers and because each unit kept its own roll, it doesn't really make sense that there'd be some kind of main list that would too and issue discs. Plus, as I said previously, I can't see why it would be 'HL' and not 'MHL'. Of course 'HL' could still stand for Hauptliste- main list- and perhaps its not military but civilian- identity discs were issued to all kinds of people- factory workers, hospital personnel, etc., etc. It makes more sense to me that it'd be some kind of main list of non-military groups since the number is so large (assuming it is sequential), and simply a number not a unit per se.

An 'L' can stand for 'Luftwaffe', sure, but it doesn't make any sense to me to be so in this case; no military unit had a number anywhere near 4126, and that's the primary bit one looks at when trying to work out a series of abbreviations.

Ultimately this is all academic since the disc is likely a fake...

**jimdvan** · 04-30-2012, 04:00 PM

Great, thanks for taking the time to school me on this stuff. At least one is good and that's fun.

**Matt L** · 04-30-2012, 04:09 PM

No problem and absolutely- the Pionier disc is a nice one and you can tell from the rather deep wear on the cord holes that it's been around. The lowish serial number suggests this soldier was trained perhaps in the first year that Pi. Ers. Btl. 9 existed, and so you can look at the histories of the various field units it supplied on the Lexikon der Wehrmacht site and see where they served.