Waffen-SS dog tag - real or fake ?

[belgrano]

I see no indication it's an old original blank that's been stamped more recently- there'll invariably be a 'halo' around each letter where the patina comes off and there don't appear to be any on this disc. It might help to get better photos- as I say these are a bit small to judge anything. For all we know, that might not be dirt on it...

Hola Matt, some closer photos

(edit- posted below)

[Matt L]

Hola belgrano- those are definitely better; but please post them using the forum's image posting system so they'll remain in the thread- it'll become useless for future reference if they're ever removed from the outside host. Gracias!

[belgrano]

Ok Matt, but I do not know how to delete the previous

[Jerry B]

Not having much knowledge on these, but to me it appears odd that the lettering does not have any of the staining/rust etc within them that the disc is covered with and it almost looks to my untrained eyes that the letters are cut through the staining etc. Asking more out of interest and to learn than disputing the originality of the disc.

[Matt L]

You're right Jerry, that is something to take note of- the corrosion should be consistent; however in the case of an old, corroded blank that's been stamped over, one usually sees a 'halo' around the new stamping where the patina is flaked off by the impact and damage to the reverse as well. In this case neither is present. In fact, in the first photo we can see the patina is perfectly intact around the two 'A's, for example; moreover, in that same image we can see there's a bit of damage that's caused a roundish bit of the right side of the 'Z', toward the bottom, to move over into the stamping, which definitely happened before the patina formed. It's actually no uncommon for the letters to appear darker or not exactly like the rest of the flat portion of the disc- sometimes it's residual dirt or other concretion, impacted right in and not removed or the like. It may be that because they're slightly impressed, they're not quite exposed to the same conditions as the flat areas so age differently- they never 'fill up' with any crystalline deposits or anything. It could be that they retain residual body oils that the flat portion doesn't and are thusly protected or otherwise have a different microenvironment than the rest too. So it's not always a bad thing is the gist of this unintentional treatise LOL

No worries about the first set of images belgrano, I'll take care of them.

As I've mentioned, the new images don't show any obvious evidence of it being a newly-stamped original blank, and I don't see anything else that appears odd. The unit is SS-Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 4, which did exist, and it had 5 Kompanien, so the marking '4.' is realistic; AND I see the unit was raised new in 1943, it wasn't a renamed earlier unit, and on rare occasions new units did issue their own discs- or, if that's not the case, 8 is a small enough number for this to be a 'replacement' disc, issued to a man who'd somehow lost his original one- or it's one the unit carried for that purpose. Since there's no blood group letter on it, it's impossible to tell whether or not it was ever issued. The age looks realistic, and the crack at the top certainly suggests the disc is old and was in the ground for a long time- cracks presumably being caused by freezing-warming cycles and ground movement due to them.

So it doesn't fit with the story you've been told- it certainly looks to have been dug up; I can't think of any way it'd look like this having just sat in a drawer for 60+ years. It has all the characteristics of a ground-dug piece.

Overall I'll say I can't see anything wrong with this disc- unfortunately without a known sample, it'll never be possible to say it is for sure real, and to know there's nothing clearly bad is the most we can often get. Were I still actively collecting discs and found this one for sale for a good price, I'd probably buy it

[Jerry B]

Hi Matt, just one more question, I thought it was common for SS discs to not have the blood group on them as it was tattooed on the soldiers arm?

[belgrano]

Hola Matt, thank you very much for your great explanation. Really very clear and complete.
Today I'm posting another dog tag that has offered me the same seller. I look forward to your great help with this also.
All the best
Jose Luis

[Matt L]

@Jerry- that's a bit of a misconception- I don't know of any official proof that the presence of a tatoo meant no mark was put on a disc. It's probably something someone theorized, and it's a valid idea, but not one that's proven. Yes, the SS did tattoo a blood group letter under the upper left arm, I think it was, but it wasn't a universal practice and I'd actually doubt it went on for long- it sounds like more of an 'elite myth' than a practical reality, especially given wartime pressures. It seems like something that might have been normal for the early SS, but perhaps not so much by the mid-war years. A lot of SS discs do have blood group letters on them- although that doesn't necessarily preclude the tatoo because it could simply have been standard practice to mark discs. Because of the tattoing practice that may or may not have been done for any given soldier, it's difficult to tell if the lack of a mark on the disc is due to that, that it simply wasn't done (which happened), or that the disc is unissued. One has to look at the time- later in the war suggest perhaps the tattooing thing wasn't so likely, for example- and the other factors, like this one's very low roll number. Since blood-typing requires special solutions, wartime pressures would affect supplies of them as well- without all the necessary reagents, it can't be done. I learned a while back that a fair percentage of soldiers never did get the testing done so discs without blood group letters aren't as uncommon as one might think.

@Jose Luis- Sure thing- I'm glad to have been able to help. I'll certainly let you know what I think of the next disc