Lost Plane Found in Normandy

[HistoryMan]

Not sure if this is a new story or not

RAF plane lost taking SAS troops to liberate France is found: but French won

[HistoryMan]

I am actually planning a trip in the summer to the area of Operation Loyton, Moussey and the Vosges mountains, and will visit the sites where our illustrious SAS heroes were murdered

Cheers

[robin morley]

'Murdered'???

[lebus12]

In the Vosges ? I discover this mission. It's illegal to dug in France.
Not sure the plane is here, I ask to a friend in this part of France.

[HistoryMan]

How would you describe the deaths of the missing SAS soldiers, honourable ?

[HistoryMan]

In the Vosges ? I discover this mission. It's illegal to dug in France.
Not sure the plane is here, I ask to a friend in this part of France.

Apparently the plane is not in the Vosges lebus, its just inland from Omaha beach in Normandy...

[robin morley]

Well I would not describe their deaths as murder. Murder is by definition an unlawful act. The killing of enemy combatants during the course of war is not unlawful therefore does not fit the legal definition of murder. If one were to apply your definition of 'murder' then surely all combatants on all sides during the war would have been murdered. The SAS soldiers and RAF crew were killed whilst on active duty or to use the official phrase Killed in action.

[HistoryMan]

Well I would not describe their deaths as murder. Murder is by definition an unlawful act. The killing of enemy combatants during the course of war is not unlawful therefore does not fit the legal definition of murder. If one were to apply your definition of 'murder' then surely all combatants on all sides during the war would have been murdered. The SAS soldiers and RAF crew were killed whilst on active duty or to use the official phrase Killed in action.

I was not referring to the soldiers killed in the aircraft, I was referring to the missing 31 SAS soldiers from Operation Loyton who were murdered by the SD and Erich Isselhorst

[Watchdog]

Well I would not describe their deaths as murder. Murder is by definition an unlawful act. The killing of enemy combatants during the course of war is not unlawful therefore does not fit the legal definition of murder. If one were to apply your definition of 'murder' then surely all combatants on all sides during the war would have been murdered. The SAS soldiers and RAF crew were killed whilst on active duty or to use the official phrase Killed in action.

Hi Robin,

Permit me to try to clarify an obvious misunderstanding here;
I do agree with your comments about combattant action but I do not believe this is what happened to the men of Op Loyton referred to here. The definition "murder" of course does not apply to those killed in direct action under arms against the enemy rather it applies to those taken prisoner and tortured before being stripped naked to remove potential sources of identification (they were all in uniform) then shot dead (some were burned to death) and buried secretly in the forrest,not really the pattern seen with legitimate execution under the rules of war. These men were not KIA they were summarily executed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Loyton

The German action "Wald Fest" included 17th SS Pz Div and the Gestapo. After the war the former CO of 22 SAS, Col Franks was a driving force in bringing many of the offenders to trial on war crime indictments. Sadly the "Cold War" and associated politics got in the way and many escaped with relatively minor sanctions applied to them as the lines of allegiance moved so drastically.

To my mind, the word murder really does apply to what happened to the PoW of Op Loyton in the Vosges as well as to many others who fell victim to the infamous Kommando Befehl.

I am not one who loses sight of the overall nature of the conduct of armed conflict to indulge in the sometimes fanatical "witch hunts" for a war crime behind every military action but this tale is one which although not widely known (it tended to be somewhat "airbrushed" after the war) is well worth adding to the night table.

Regards

Mark

[lebus12]

I see 33 SAS were killed by Gestapo.
A friend of mine tell me that a museum will open in Raon l'Etape about SAS.