recognizes "liar" german ace?

[another ant]

font: Fighter Pilot: The First American Ace of World War II by William R. Dunn

time ago I read the same in another book I forget which (only the marked in yellow) did not mention the name of the "liar" but these three names are shuffled

Erich Hartmann
Wilhelm Balthasar
Werner Mölders

anyone knows anything about this story? and who was it this "liar"?

[Gunny Hartmann]

Franz von Werra?.... he had a reputation of being a bit of a bullsh*tter!...

[Scout]

With over a thousand missions and hundreds of downed enemy planes, I dont think Hartmann 'needed' to make up any fictional stories. Whether he did so or not, I can of course not say for sure.
Further more, he mostly flew on the Eastern Front.

[SteveR]

German pilots got credit for aircraft shot up on the ground also which uped their scores considerably.

[Scout]

.............further more, certain types of Eastern Front airborne kills were 'easier' to come by hence the Hartmann statistics (not that he wasnt one heck of a pilot)............., but now Im straying in regards to the OP.

[asterperious]

German pilots got credit for aircraft shot up on the ground also which uped their scores considerably.

I think you are confuding the americans here, only ground attack units like Stukas counted scores on the ground.

Undeniably being in a target rich environement helped, but the germans flew until they died from the beginning to the end, there was no finish line of a set 'tour' if allied aces had stayed in for the duration and were generally closer to a land based tactical front with thousands of foes, we might have seen similar scores. German tallies have been exhaustively studied and are not considered to have been padded at all. In some instances scores are a bit under reported as some had a habit of blooding new pilots with a complimentary 'victory'. German kill claims needed exhaustive confirmaton as kills counted towards points for decorations at one point and many had 'throat ache' for the knights cross. Remember how bureacratic and retentive the germans are. They fought a very different war and within the constriants of combat that the allies imposed on their piltos they did very well. The general lack of targerts for air to air in NW Europe after D-day lead to the americans counting 'ground kills' although most pilots made the distinction and aces had an asterisk next to them if any 'kills' were ground claims. Many a poor He111 marooned on an airfield was 'killed' over and over by American pilots leading to score inflaition. In fact so anxious were many american pilots to score killls, that a large number of RAF Typhoons and Tempests were shot down by friendlies as presumed Fw190's.

[Scout]

Undeniably being in a target rich environement helped, but the germans flew until they died from the beginning to the end, there was no finish line of a set 'tour' if allied aces had stayed in for the duration and were generally closer to a land based tactical front with thousands of foes, we might have seen similar scores. .

Further elaboration is needed and IMO the two air fronts (US/UK forces vs the Luftwaffe in the West and in the East, the Luftwaffe vs the Soviet Air Force) are NOT comparable. Not even comparable, had the Western European air war been a more 'target rich' enviroment for the Allies. All kinds of scenarios can of course the debated in theory, but that doesnt correlate with the historical facts.

Only in the Eastern skies could an experienced Luftwaffe Ace in a hi-tech FW or other advanced machine meet scores and scores of inexperienced pilots in inferior planes in those numbers at a certain point in time during WWII.

The USSR ruthlessly in their fight for survival at some point threw everything INCLUDING the kitchen sink at the German forces. That included young wet-behind-the-ears pilots in outdated antiquated slow moving undergunned planes - you do the math.

There were fantastic capable pilots and some terrific airplanes from all nationalities involved during WWII, but certain factors, amongst them chiefly those outlined above, made for some out-of-this-world air scores, which like we will never see again.

The stats of 'Bubi' Hartmann and Rudel will never be repeated.

For the horrific fighting conditions and how Rudel achieved his high scores of both airborne and land based targets (and a rather big ship as well), I heartedly recommend his biography from his time on the Eastern Front.
Disregard his political views and read it for the narrative of ones mans part in the thick of it on the Eastern Front and incredible flying skills and high score.

German tallies have been exhaustively studied and are not considered to have been padded at all.

I know, that you didnt accuse me of having stated, that the numbers were padded, but just for the record I want to stress, that I never implied that either.
Its my impression, that the Germans were rather strict record keepers during WWII.
(Now, as for Göring and his exploits not least in the span of his WWI J.G. Richthofen period, dont get me started....., but thats a story for another thread).

[CampX]

Well Said Scout!!!!

Just My Thoughts
Dean O
Ajax Canada

[Scout]

Thank you, Dean.

[asterperious]

Scout - I think you are missing the main point I made above, I am not 'comparing' the campaigns, different operational factors accounted for victory tally discrepancies, that is all. If similar existed eleswhere, you might have seen similar outcomes, not refighting a fictional 'what if' war here.

Your assertion about the quality of the Red Air force only holds up for about the first 8-10 months after Barbartossa, after that the quality of pilots and machines climbed significantly and conclusively. Remember, the Americans did not do well in the air for the first 10 months or so of their involvement in the air campaigns either, but learned fast. Again, the germans flew until they died, in fact what is notable is that such a relatively small number of German pilots accounted for a preponderance of aerial victories - as the war progressed by '43 the calibre of german pilots coming in fresh was notably low, and losses were high, all the German premier aces note this in teir memoirs - the lack of training resources counted for a lot, skill comes with practice - unreliable poor quality aircraft built under duress by slave labouers and poor quality fuels combined with the loss of air superiority undermined luftwaffe performance. Guys like Hartman who went operational in Feb '43 IIRC are exceptional, and not normative. Also once the air campaign in the west tied up many new variant luftwaffe fighters and skilled pilots were diverted west to defend the reich and away from the soviets, the soviet fighter force gained the edge. Did you know there were rarely more than 2 wings of FW 190s at anytime on the Russian front?

The war in the east is hard for us in the west to comprehend, there were more men and material committed to Kursk in the summer of '43 than the western allies used from D-Day to V-E Day. So yes, scale equals opportunity, but don't discount the Russians - they won, German tech/skill/elan/ego without quantity could never have prevailed.

If you are interested in the Soviet side of the air war in the east I would reccmend this book by 2 of my colleagues, it is very illuminating. Red Phoenix Rising: The Soviet Air Force in World War II (Modern War Studies): Von Hardesty, Ilya Grinberg: 9780700618286: Amazon.com: Books