German WW1 13mm T-Gewehr Anti Tank Rifle.

**Falschirmjager** · 05-04-2010, 07:59 PM

by Reg

Hi Gents

I had the chance to have a good look and tinker with one of these AT rifles in an MOD armoury some years ago! theyre incredibly heavy! I also saw one the other week in the Shropshire regiment museum in Shrewsbury castle! I bet there are quite a few still around in small museums etc ... they must have been one of the ultimate bring-back's for troops and regimental collections after the war! Ild imagine any Mauser collector would see it as possibly the ultimate item.

That ww2 7.92 round is certainly pretty wacky looking!!! Great thread, Thanks Fallschirmjager!

Cheers
Reg

Its a truly fascinating subject and one i had overlooked until recently. I have started to look out for variations on the AT rifle ammo but most are quite expensive though well worth collecting. That German WW1 weapon was quite some beast and apparently the firer had to cant his body off to one side 20 degrees off the weapons centreline to ensure he did not receive a severe back injury on pulling the trigger, even so the recoil was still enough to almost flip him over onto his back. its amazing the Russian 14.5mm being a larger calibre weapon was far more user friendly and that same basic 14.5mm cartridge is still in use in Russian made heavy machine guns and anti aircraft weapons today tho with cases made from lacquered steel rather than brass. Regards, Tim.

FcsaUK · 05-05-2010, 10:39 AM

The recoil on all these historical AT rifles is greatly exagerated, I've shot most of them over the past 10 years and although they are not nice things to use you certainly dont end up with broken bones, bleeding nose or concussion! The biggest worry is the huge hangfire you'll experience when using wartime ammuntion, especially the .55 Boys, that does more damage to your mental state than any physical recoil does to your body. The T-Gewehr is so heavy that is absorbs much of the recoil by its sheer weight, depite the lack of a well designed muzzle break.

Chris

**Falschirmjager** · 05-05-2010, 05:19 PM

by FcsaUK

The recoil on all these historical AT rifles is greatly exagerated, I've shot most of them over the past 10 years and although they are not nice things to use you certainly dont end up with broken bones, bleeding nose or concussion! The biggest worry is the huge hangfire you'll experience when using wartime ammuntion, especially the .55 Boys, that does more damage to your mental state than any physical recoil does to your body. The T-Gewehr is so heavy that is absorbs much of the recoil by its sheer weight, depite the lack of a well designed muzzle break.

Chris

I did look in some detail at the medical evidence regarding the use of the 13mm T-Gewehr during WW1. The report was compiled in Germany during the testing phase of the weapon and it did state specialist instruction was required especially in that of body positioning during firing of the weapon. It also stated that prior to this course of specialist instruction there had been a spate of serious shoulder injuries and numerous back injuries to the firer. On average after firing three consecutive shots most experienced bleeding from the nose, ears and eyes and a degree of concussion and the report concluded that the firer should wherever possible lie in the prone position with his body canted off 20 degrees from the centreline of the weapon when firing and should only fire three shots and then let the other guy take over for next three shots and so on to minimise any physical problems. The report sugested that after 9 shots were fired by one crew that if possible another should take over until the target is stopped. Its interesting that Lieutnant Freytag and his crewman between them fired 17 shots to halt a British Tank at Cambrai, however Lt Freytag sustained a permanent shoulder injury as did his fellow crewman who suffered a degree of concussion. A telescopic sight was also tried during early trials to improve accuracy at longer ranges but the optics used were shattered after the first shot was fired! So open "V" sight was only type used. The information came from Mauser Werke Archives, Oberndorf, Germany. This is certainly a fascinating series. Regards, Tim.

**Reg** · 05-05-2010, 05:28 PM

I think one variable factor in this would be the physical shape, build and age of the firer! A skinny short 18 year old poorly fed conscript could probably suffer some damage where as a beefy, lofty, ayrian fighting machine of a man would fair better off!

I recall that generally the bigger the soldier, the bigger the weapon he was assigned! (though not allways! I remember some hillarious range antics with skinny light lads and rifle grenades)

Cheers
Reg

**Falschirmjager** · 05-05-2010, 05:51 PM

by Reg

I think one variable factor in this would be the physical shape, build and age of the firer! A skinny short 18 year old poorly fed conscript could probably suffer some damage where as a beefy, lofty, ayrian fighting machine of a man would fair better off!

I recall that generally the bigger the soldier, the bigger the weapon he was assigned! (though not allways! I remember some hillarious range antics with skinny light lads and rifle grenades)

Cheers
Reg

Hey Reg, Talking of hilarious moments on the range i have a priceless one here to tell! A good few years back there was a military requirement for a weapon designed to neutralise the growing threat of battlefield helicopters, particularly those of the then Soviet Union. As a result the General Yorke ( i think it was named) was set up for trials. This consisted of one or two remote radar controlled 40-mm Boffors guns with a radar system geared mainly to detect and engage rotor aircraft. Now this beast was set up BUT before the target drone took off the weapon swung into life, everyone hit the deck and the two Boffors blazed away!! What the hell happened??? A few cries of consternation and a totally destroyed portable toilet! The portable toilet just happened to have a FAN inside which the Sergeant Yorkes radar picked up as soon as it was switched on, hence the gun swinging around and blasting it to pieces with proximity fuzed H.E rounds. The air was soon filled with hysterical laughter before the big wigs started to shout and bawl ordering the squaddies to clear the mess up. It was later found that tests had been rigged and the system was useless!-the end of Sergeant Yorke for good. Thought id share that with everyone! Regards, Tim.

FcsaUK · 05-06-2010, 10:36 AM

by Reg

I think one variable factor in this would be the physical shape, build and age of the firer! A skinny short 18 year old poorly fed conscript could probably suffer some damage where as a beefy, lofty, ayrian fighting machine of a man would fair better off!

I recall that generally the bigger the soldier, the bigger the weapon he was assigned! (though not allways! I remember some hillarious range antics with skinny light lads and rifle grenades)

Cheers
Reg

Without a doubt the physical shape/weight of the person operating the rifle will dictate the extent of any physical damage inflicted on that individual. We have used the 13mm T-Gewehr with reloads comprising of modern nitro powders, (Vectan SP13 - a fast 50BMG powder) however no doubt cordite has a faster burn time. Original live ammunition for the Boys is all cordite and readily available from Section 5 dealers, reloads using SP13 have obtained idential MV results to original Kynoch factory loads, indicating that the reloads can be made to replicate the original burn characterists, although it might be hard to match the sub millisecond initial impulse.
Many people have used 50BMG chambered rifles without the muzzle break to 'see what happens', even in the case of a very lightweight Barrett the operator didnt experience any bleeding from the nose/ears etc, so if the Mauser report is accurate then god knows what conditions the weapon was fired in (a closed room?).

There are so many myths about AT rifles, stories concering backs broken by the fierce recoil of the Boys rifle for example, despite firing hundreds of .55 rounds I've never seen anyone with more damage than a daft smile on their face after firing!

**MG1918** · 03-10-2013, 06:22 AM

If anybody has any 13 mm T Gewehr ammo for sale please let me know? Has anyone any images of the box/cartons these came in? VMT

**MG1918** · 03-10-2013, 06:25 AM

http://i795.photobucket.com/albums/y...ps91613ee1.jpg

**TonyE** · 03-10-2013, 12:05 PM

It's nice to see my scans of the drawings of the T-Gewehr and ammunition form the Small Arms Committee minutes that I posted on another site being put to good use by Fallschirmjaeger!

However, a couple of corrections are needed.

The "T67" headstamp does indeed indeed indicate it is T-Gewehr ammunition but the "67" does not indicate the load but the brass alloy with 67% copper. Also, although the November dated loads are relatively scarce, it is the October dated rounds (10) that have never been seen. It is believed that the shortage of brass was becoming such that only cases from previous months were reloaded in October hence no "10" headstamps.

The cores were not tungsten as stated. The early round had a steel core weighing 51.7 grams that was only hardened at the tip but from November the steel core weight was increased to 52.5 grams and hardened all over. It was planned to increase effectiveness by increasing the calibre to 15mm or more but the end of the war prevented this.

I agree with fcsaUK about recoil. I have not fired a T-Gewehr but have fired the Boys (both in .55 inch and converted .50 calibre), the Swiss 24mm AT rifle, 20mm Solothurn and 20mm Lahti and although unpleasent have suffered none of the effects described. The T-Gewehr was best fired standing in a trench or shell hole as it allowed the firer to sway back with the recoil.

The chamber pressure of 18tsi is irrelevant as it is the same as a .303 inch rifle. It is cartridge energy compared to rifle weight that deternines recoil impulse.

Regards
TonyE