Help needed to identify flak fragments?

**mjw** · 06-09-2010, 11:30 PM

Hello Andy,

Thank you for the interesting reply and great pics. I will certainly keep my eyes open for anything similar.

Kind regards, Malcolm.

**Matt L** · 06-10-2010, 03:58 AM

Actually it was already pointed out that these little grooves are far too small and too shallow to have anything to do with the driving bands- this cross section of an 8,8cm Sprgr. L/4,5 shows it quite clearly. They're about 6mm deeply set into the shell body and 11mm or so wide, so if the band were missing that's the kind of groove that'd be visible. Any other comparably-sized shell would have a similar design.

**dogdog47** · 06-10-2010, 08:28 AM

How can you be so sure i have a L70 in section and the wallt of the shell are arount 10-15mm thick the drive band is small and the lines are like that. its only 40mm though.unless you have seen every kind of shell without its drive band its an open issue. i have been collecting for a very long time and still find things i have not seen before.
regards
Andy

**Matt L** · 06-10-2010, 03:05 PM

I'd love to see a photo of that Andy- I'd be incredibly surprised to see any shell with shallowly-set driving bands.

I've just had a look at some sectioned 6pdr. shells and I see within the driving band groove there are two little RAISED 'ribs'- is that what you're talking about in your first posting where you mentioned 'raised grooves' (those words are mutually exclusive so confusing). If so, I don't get the connection- unless the light is playing tricks, the three grooves on Malcom's fragments are grooves, not raised anything so have nothing to do with the design of British driving band grooves... right?

**Matt L** · 06-10-2010, 03:19 PM

I found a sectioned Bofors 40mm L70 and the driving band is inset as relatively deeply as expected but there are again those two (maybe three?) tiny raised ribs dividing the groove- they're not as tall as the groove is deep, so the groove itself would be the most significant feature (in the absence of the band itself).

Malcolm- are those three 'things' on your fragments groove or little raised ridges? And now I see a bit of a shadow above the first one (orientation as you've photographed them)- is that actually there and maybe a step down such that the three whatevers are actually in a valley?

**dogdog47** · 06-10-2010, 03:33 PM

Hi Matt sory to have confused you.
your opinion is no more valid than mine.
kind regards
Andy

**Matt L** · 06-10-2010, 03:44 PM

Ha- I don't recall ever having said it was. Just not clear enough to be understood is all. But it's okay, I've figured out what I think you mean myself.

So Malcolm- which of the two cross-sections I've drawn next to your fragment represents what it really is? 1 shows the three whatevers as grooves, which is what I originally saw, and 2 would be if they're raised riblets in a wider groove, which is what I presume Andy's seeing (and now I wonder if is truly the case too).

The only trouble is that it would make the driving band what, 4cm wide? That seems incredibly large... have the British ever made one so massive? Sectioned US shells I've seen don't have the raised ribs, so it may be just a British feature.

**mjw** · 06-10-2010, 03:53 PM

Hello Matt / Andy,

In the excellent drawings by Matt it is illustration No.2 that fits the bill. They three raised ribs not grooves.

I have attached new new scans - the best I can do to try and make it a little clearer. Hope this helps.

Kind regards, Malcolm.

**Matt L** · 06-11-2010, 12:27 AM

Ah, okay that makes all the difference- if they're all within a groove themselves, then what Andy suggested could be correct it seems- they may well be the little raised ribs in the middle of the driving band groove. But since there's no indication of an area between bands, they must all be part of one, no? From your ruler in the second photo you posted that makes the driving band at least 4cm wide- that's big. I have some section diagrams of various shells and a German 15.2cm HE shell does have a band that's about 4cm wide, however the wall thickness there is almost 3.5cm so it'd have to be a case of a large shell having a thin wall (save that they seem to be linked features in every diagram I have). Looking again, I see no German rounds with three little ribs below the driving band- a few have some shapes, a secondary groove, a projection, but none the multiple little ribs. So indeed since even the relatively small Bofors and the 6pdr. have them, once more you may be looking at Allied artillery here.