Unknown Bayonet

[crites1234]

I bought this bayonet about 3 years ago at an antique sale and was told it was a WW1 Canadian Bayonet but i'm not sure so i hoped someone could confirm this. thanks

[Walkwolf]

It's a 1907 Ross Rifle bayonet, which has been 'de-mobbed' and ground
down into a fighting/utility knife. I also have one of these.........

[relicz]

Looks like a Ross that has been altered a bit (cross guard and muzzle ring).

Link to markings:
Markings on British and Commonwealth Bayonets


Just noticed Steve answered before me.

[Moshemotom]

You're correct, it's a Ross Rifle bayonet, although it looks to have had the muzzle ring removed for some reason. Possibly as a fighting knife conversion when they realised the rifle it was supposed to be attached too was bloody hopeless in the trenches!

Tom

[Walkwolf]

The one thing that the link does not show is the two opposing
'Broad Arrow' points within the 'C' stamp - this is the
de-commissioned mark.........

[Walkwolf]

Tom's bayonet is a 'MKII' type with the tip altered to a point.
The first type, MKI's, are more rounded. These would not
pierce clothing well, so were recalled........

[Moshemotom]

I didn't know that Steve, interesting stuff. There's not much about the Ross or its accompaniments that they got right is there?

I'm afraid the rifle/bayonet isn't mine, I doubt I'll ever be adding a Ross to my collection! I'd certainly rather have my trusty SMLE!

Tom

[relicz]

The one thing that the link does not show is the two opposing
'Broad Arrow' points within the 'C' stamp - this is the
de-commissioned mark.........

I wasn't quite sure what that was, looked like a circled asterisk - now it makes sense - thanks Steve.

[Walkwolf]

Like the Avro Arrow, the Ross rifle was a complete failure.
Well designed, but wouldn't function when full of wet
French mud.

Don't let anyone try to convince you that the Avro Arrow
was 'state of the art'. It was outdated for it's time.........
( See - Convair B58 'Hustler' )

[MilitariaOne]

Here's a conversation about these knives: from this website CSC Discussion Forum: Ross Bayonet questions......

This should be everything you'd ever want to know, I cut and pasted the relevant bit below.

Njoy,

Lance


"I am probably the person Roger is referring to. Several variations of Ross knives seem to exist, and so far I feel I've noted three distinct series. The first of these are the commonly encountered well crafted knives with bowie style clip point and neatly ground crossguards, featuring a sealed pommel and wooden grips ground flush with the screws. They are usually accompanied by an original military scabbard suitably shortened in either the original brown leather or overdyed in black. Most carry the struck off service mark (opposing Broadarrows inside a C) but some do not.(see below)

This conversion is described in "The Ross Rifle Story" by Phillips, Chadwick and Dupuis in Chapter 8. In 1944 Montreal businessman William Margolin purchased 2,207 surplus Ross bayonets and 1,963 scabbards. He shipped them to PAL Tool and Blade of Holyoak, Massachusetts for altering into hunting knives. I have discovered that PAL Tool and Blade apparently had a factory in Plattsburgh N.Y. and I suspect this is where the work was actually done. In
R.B. Manarey's pamphlet "The Canadian Bayonet" 1970, we find a photo and reference to these knives mentioning that they were civilian conversions to hunting knives sold through United Cigar Stores at the end of the war for $7.50

We also find a reference to these knives in M.H.Cole "A Collection of Military Knives" (book 4 I think) which if I recall gives an incorrect number of examples produced. We find it again in F.J.Stephens "Fighting Knives' 1980 on p.26 where he postulates it is an "official conversion."

Another early reference is in the article "The Ross Bayonet and Scabbard" by F. Dupuis in Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting Vol 9 No. 2 May 1971.
This article was later revised and became Chapter 8 in the Ross Rifle Story.
In this original article Dupuis postulates that his brown scabbard knife with a struck off service mark was a military conversion while his black scabbard knife without the mark was civilian. At the time this was a logical conclusion but incorrect. So we can see how authors have stoked the controversy over the origins of this conversion.

The Margolin hunting knives have several distinct traits.

1.) Variations in the clip point profiles are attributable to hand grinding by different craftsman. I have several that match different profiles.

2.) Some blades are polished, some are even nickel plated.

3.) In Chapter 8 by Phillips, Chadwick and Dupuis we learn some knives were sold without receiving the struck off service mark, leading the RCMP to complain to the army that regulations were being ignored. The army sent over a man with dies to mark up the remaining stock at a warehouse in Montreal in August of 1944.This explains why some knives have no mark.

4.) The black scabbards probably came from stocks of the Canadian Navy, which apparently withdrew its Ross rifles and bayonets from service in 1944. The practice of overdying scabbards in black colour seems to have originated with Britain's Royal Navy in WWI with a small stock of Ross bayonets (and rifles) they received. It made the scabbards conform to the black boots.

5.) It appears 237 knives had no scabbards and were sold "naked". I have at least one of these, which features a plated blade. Knives with plated blades and scabbards pick up a mar along the spine from the scabbard locket. My scabbardless knife has no marring. I also have one knife made from the rare Ross MK I trials bayonet of 1909 which shows the two securing pins in the pommel and ricasso markings. I've seen a photo of another example on the internet."