WWII British Royal Air Force RAF officer's & hat badge

[Michael Ryan]

Hi, The FS cap can and is worn on duty ergo Station Duties, Orderly Corporal, Sergeant, SDOand Orderly Officer etc. and can also be worn with any No2 Dress uniform or derivative there of. However, it can not be worn on any ceremonial duties or with ceremonial uniforms etc. Hope that this helps you.
Regards Michael R

[Patgore]

Conclusion is we don't know.
It doesn't look like officer's pattern, but men were commissioned from the ranks and in some cases re-badged their OR kit. A tech officer messing around engines, for example, may have kept his old OR cap after he was commissioned with an officer's badge, rather then wear a spanking new officer hat on the job.
Two questions come to mind: When were the spikes on these badges first used, rather than post-and-nut fittings or sliders? (Or clutch pin?)
And, of course, did some a------e put an British officer's badge on an old European hat to make a few extra bucks/quid? Hard to believe, but there are people who would do that.

[Michael Ryan]

Hi Patgore, I am inclined to agree with you and would say that the answer is more or less whatever you want to beleive. Fold over bars are not a commonanality among RAF issue insignia. However, most Officer's uniform clothing is procured on a "Clothing on a pre paymen" basis through the RAF Supply system or by private purchase through retail outlets. Ergo, officers can purchase high or lesser quality insignia. I M O, the badge illustrated falls into the latter catagory as RAF issue FSC and beret badges employ either loops and split pins or machine screw and nuts reverse fitments. I have also seen several other types of fitment. To further complicate the issue, officers are authorised to purchase and wear certain other OR uniform items, for example, the female OR No1 SD cap with the addition of an officer pattern badge etc. I have read and heard of numerous people refering to wrong and repro flying badges and qualification badges etc. Given that a currently serving officer/airman can wear either a service supplied or civilian procured badge then theoretically, there is no such thing as a wrong currently worn badge. The same applies to substantive and non substantive shoulder slides, patches and squadron/unit badges etc. In fact, even very high ranking accoutrements like aiguilettes were once private purchase as are officer's shoulder boards to this day, hence the variety of eagles and quality etc. A bit of a mine field!! Your final comment could be equally true. If we were discussing high value collectables then this conversation may have greater relevance but given the value and the possibilities, then I feel that this cap falls into whatever catagory the owner wishes to place it. If it was mine, I would keep it as a "variation" and forget about its historical significance. Would you agree??
Cheers Michael R

[Michael Ryan]

Hi Patgore, Further to my last message, I once rebadged a Group Captain's uniform who had just been appointed as ADC to EIIR. The Queen is known to have a very accute eye for uniform, accoutrements and insignia etc so I removed his Navigator single wing brevet from his jacket and replaced it with an issue item. The original, of inferior quality, was embroidered on a royal blue field rather than on the official black melton as prescribed in Dress Regulations for the RAF. The purists among us would say that it was wrong/repro/copy etc. However, it was, none-the-less, worn by a very senior RAF officer on his No1 Dress uniform whilst he was serving as a Station Commander. Call the badge what ever you like, but it still resides in my RAF Badge Collection along with numerous other "wrong" badges. If interested, I can give several other examples??
Cheers Michael R

[Patgore]

Hi, Michael:

Unfortunately it would be prohibitively expensive to bring in Crime Scene Investigators to look at questionable artifacts, but that might be the only way of arriving at the truth in some cases.

Imagine what that would do to Flea Bay!

I've always assumed that about 98 % of the Nazi stuff on the market is guilty until proven innocent.

Cheers,

Pat

[Michael Ryan]

Hi Pat, I like your philosophy (is that how you spell it?) and am very inclined to agree. However, we must not become too fake concious or we could miss some good buys!!
Happy hunting and best wishes Michael R

[Ocad]

I think this FS cap has been badged to appear something else, perhaps by someone who thought it would be worth more being "ww2".

It is interesting what you are saying Michael. I think some Officers or let's say outfitters offered slight variations in their pattern of badges and cut, perhaps due to material available at the time, or a "design flare" of the house or individual officer.

This slight variation from regulation is not too common but nevertheless encountered. I have a wartime RAF officer's cap with dark blue badge backing instead of black. With ORs I think this would not be tolerated but as Officers kit was previous private purchase they seem to have gotten away with more.

[Michael Ryan]

HI Ocad, Yes, you are probably quite correct on you first point. However, if the cap was reasonably priced and came from an acceptable source, I would probably still buy it just as a curiosity. With regard to the Officer pattern cap badge on blue, an unusual variation and totaly incorrect but I too have a similar badge but with a QC. Rules are rules but are invariably broken from time to time. As a matter of interest, I aquired a Personal ADC to the Monarch (QE2) aiguilette and it has been made to fit the wrong shoulder??

Are you an RAF collector? If of what?

Cheers and best wishes Michael R

[Ocad]

Hi Michael,

Sorry for my slow response. Yes I do collect RAF caps and uniforms, although am not restricted to this area, as I have a mix of various branches and countries. What about yourself?

[Michael Ryan]

Hi Ocad, Thank you for your response. Yes, I also collect in a variety of fields but am pretty keen on RAF "Stuff", mainly Uniforms, caps and badges but have been known to venture into car flags and the like. I have no interest in aircraft having served a lifetime in the RAF and feel the same about flying clothing. On the uniform side, I like anything old (and new) and smelley but try to stick with higher ranking items because of space. Caps of any rank are always of great interest to me and although I collect any RAF insignia, my favourite fiels is rank insignia. My other interests cove German (any period), US, Russian and civil Police. A real odd mish mash!! What other "stuff" floats your boat??
Cheers Michael R