Estate fresh Ike jacket

[aurelius180]

Nice Ike at a great price! Not often that you see an 8th AAF jacket from the Pacific.

[AZPhil]

The only thing that does bothers me, if his ribbon bar is correct and all there. Is if he was assigned to the 8thAF in England, He would have an ETO ribbon. The rest make sense if this story is true.
I see an World War II Victory on top , then Asiatic Campaign,American Campaign and a Army Good Conduct. The ribbons do not seem to be in the correct spec of application "1/8 inch" over left breast pocket of the uniform". So maybe they were taken off and then added later to the uniform to sell and that ETO ribbon was lost to history

Semper Fi
Phil

[Pauls1970]

Congratulations on this jacket Jarret, it's great & only right that such a piece should fall into the correct hands, to be enjoyed once again ! I am so impressed by the helpfulness of the members here with their comments, surely makes this world of ours 'go round' !
Regards
Paul

[Luftwaffe 1941]

I really appreciate the kind and wise comments!

In response to Phil's observation, this jacket having no European theater bar also made me a bit confused. Here are my thoughts on this oddity. On the right hand sleeve there are two overseas service bars, and one three year service stripe. Since this man served one year overseas, we can assume the other two years from the stripe signify U.S. service. Would it be possible for this man to have served the 8th to some degree in the U.S. for two years?

I would assume this man's time in the pacific was short lived after the atomic bombings, so I doubt the two six month overseas bars came from his time there. Maybe his ETO bar was just lost? I don't know....... the uniform not having this particular award really has me scratching my head

I know a collector should never think a sellers word is 100% golden, but I wanted to mention that the seller told me that this uniform had remained in a garment bag in the veterans closet for most of its life. So the claim is that it's unaltered.

Ah, there is another thing I wanted to mention. I volunteered at the Houston airshow today, and while there I met a very kind U.S. WW2 veteran of the European theater. He was wearing his original Ike jacket, and as an enthusiast of these jackets I closely observed it. His ribbon bars were a jumbled mess, and his unit patch was oddly sewn incorrectly to the right shoulder. It's worth mentioning that this was a not a double patched example either.

So it seems, at least to me; that it isn't uncommon to find these out of regulation.

I'm still learning a lot about these uniforms, so my assumptions could be way out of line!

Best regards- Jarret

[MAP]

I really appreciate the kind and wise comments!

In response to Phil's observation, this jacket having no European theater bar also made me a bit confused. Here are my thoughts on this oddity. On the right hand sleeve there are two overseas service bars, and one three year service stripe. Since this man served one year overseas, we can assume the other two years from the stripe signify U.S. service. Would it be possible for this man to have served the 8th to some degree in the U.S. for two years?

I would assume this man's time in the pacific was short lived after the atomic bombings, so I doubt the two six month overseas bars came from his time there. Maybe his ETO bar was just lost? I don't know....... the uniform not having this particular award really has me scratching my head

I know a collector should never think a sellers word is 100% golden, but I wanted to mention that the seller told me that this uniform had remained in a garment bag in the veterans closet for most of its life. So the claim is that it's unaltered.

Ah, there is another thing I wanted to mention. I volunteered at the Houston airshow today, and while there I met a very kind U.S. WW2 veteran of the European theater. He was wearing his original Ike jacket, and as an enthusiast of these jackets I closely observed it. His ribbon bars were a jumbled mess, and his unit patch was oddly sewn incorrectly to the right shoulder. It's worth mentioning that this was a not a double patched example either.

So it seems, at least to me; that it isn't uncommon to find these out of regulation.

I'm still learning a lot about these uniforms, so my assumptions could be way out of line!

Best regards- Jarret

Never say never. Anything is possible. I wouldn't worry too much. It's direct from the Vet. If a little out of "order" that is fine.

[AZPhil]

With the time frame you are seeing and hearing about his service and lack of another Right should patches to say he served elsewhere in the US (1st-4thAF) and the limited time he served. I would say No for the 8th AF service in the states. They were the VIII Bomber command here and then 8th AF in England when that patch was instituted. That is where he would of gotten that. Remember he joined in December of 42' He would of had Basic training, then would of had his specialty training. This is where you need to get his records to find what did he train in. Where was he before being shipped over sea's, Who was he attached to here in the staes before being shipped overseas and when did he get assigned to the 8th AF. If he was a cook. He could of floated around until assigned to the 8th AF.

If he got the patch and then was in Guam, This section of what I posted would make sense and he is missing the ETO ribbon.

"In September 1945, just after the Surrender of Japan, a few advance elements of Eighth Air Force arrived on Tinian and Guam. Eighth Air Force was transferred from England"

The ribbons have been removed and replaced. You can tell that by just looking at them. They are not on the uniform correctly and would be unacceptable to wear in that current state. He is a Sgt and would of had his Ass chewed for disrespecting the uniform and wearing them in that fashion. That is why I'm thinking his ETO is missing.

And just a note to you initial post. He was in the Army Air Force Not Army Air Corps if he enlisted in "December 14th 1942" It went from AAC to AAF in 1941.

I know the 8th AF. I am not a historical expert of the 8thAF who's word is the end all of the subject.

But look at the uniform and the patch, look at the ribbons ,and how they sit on the uniform, Look at the story. For this to match the item with the story. He would need an ETO ribbon.

Get his records if you can to end all speculation on the what and where's and for how long.

Semper Fi
Phil

[aurelius180]

Particularly with WW2 era uniforms I wouldn't be too concerned with order or proper placement of ribbons and SSI. I was more concerned with it when I started collecting but these men were citizen soldiers and not career military men. Most were happy to get through it and get home and would place all of their ribbons on our place them in a way to look a bit flashier or not put all of them on. Regulations also weren't enforced like today. I'm more concerned with where it came from and if the ribbons make sense.

With yours it's definitely not a common combination but not out of the realm of possibility. Before removing anything I would try to confirm his service by researching or ordering his records. It's also not a flashy combination and one most wouldn't intentionally fake.

Here is a 7th Army Lt officer uniform I have where the SSI is way out of place. But, along with the jacket came a period picture of the original owner in the exact same jacket with the SSI out of place.

[Rakkasan187]

Some great points have been made in reference to missing ribbons, misplaced shoulder patches and other stipulations..

As mentioned, uniform regulations and the wearing of ribbons and badges were not strictly adhered to. There were of course some units who paid particular attention to how the Soldiers wore ribbons and in some cases the wearing of the ribbons in a proper order was only mandated after it appeared in Stars and Stripes newspapers and other individual unit orders.. I have a few copies of Stars and Stripes that have articles about the proper wear of ribbons and campaign stars and other items.. These articles help set the precedent which led to future regulations such as Army Regulation 670-1 Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms as well as Army Regulation 672-5-1 which covers Military Awards and AR 672-5-2 covers Decorations and Awards and Illustrations of Decorations and Awards... These regulations were necessary due to the lack of proper wearing of awarded decorations and the "perception" of the Soldier's who wore them...

A perfect example of this misconception is within the obituaries of many of our Veterans who have passed and their family members are tasked with writing about their loved one's service.. I have seen many instances where a family writes that their relative fought bravely and was awarded 5 bronze stars,, BUT these bronze stars in many cases were for campaign participation and not the Bronze Star medal for either meritorious service or for an Act of Valor.. so one of the many reasons we dismiss items on uniforms because we are looking for "completeness" for a uniform to be accurate and if it is missing some believe it is not a correct uniform...

Jarret,

The information you have received from AZPHIL, MAP, aurelius180, and other stellar members of our Forum is very informative as well as accurate and descriptive.. Some times the most logical solution to an explanation is the simplest...

As suggested try to find the records through NARA for this person,, you have most of what you need and you also have a direct connection with the personal letter.. Reach back to the family and see if they are willing to provide more information, you may get lucky and they may have his discharge paper of other papers...

Keep up the great work...

Smitty

[AZPhil]

Jarret you found a great deal on an 8th AF Ike. Try and get Sgt. Smith records. It will be the tell all for his service.

I would also add that the 8th AF did not come into existence until February of 1944. That is when that patch would have been worn. Prior to that when they were the VIII Bomber Command they wore the AAF Patch. A perfect reference of that time frame is the HBO documentary "The Cold Blue" I just watched it again today. Its awesome if you are into the USAAF in England. Its is mainly the real Memphis Bell crew video. It has been digitally enhanced from original color film's taken in that time period of that Bomb Group.
It is an Awesome uniform and flight gear film for reference purposes. I know I'm going to watch it a couple more times. It is that good!
I wish you luck in your research of Sgt.Farce H Smith
The good thing is he isn't named John Smith, That would be a long list.
Take care
Semper Fi
Phil

[AZPhil]

I have to add to this, that the Army way is much different than the Marine Corps way. No matter how long you intend to stay in it. Be it drafted or joined, No such thing as Civilian soldier. One enlistment to a Lifer. You were a Marine. You are taught from Day One that the uniform represent all those who served before you and gave their all to this country. To disrespect the uniform is to disrespect our History.
One way we can spot a faker is by how is medals/ribbons/awards are displayed. It will not, with no exceptions be out of reg. We don't wing it or wear it how it would be flashier. This is how we have done it since there were medals or ribbons to be worn on a Marine Uniform.

Now their are some who will not wear what they think they did not deserve or it was the men that died under his service that should have gotten it and not him. This I know for a fact and knew many Vietnam vets during my service who received Silver Stars and did not wear it for just that reason..Yes a hit on Major inspections but Noted with Exception!
So when I hear excuses for this I just have to say to myself, Yeah "The Army Way"

Or maybe we just knew that Every Lady Loves A Sharped Dressed Man!!!!!!

Semper Fi
Phil