Operation Market-Garden

**philip ABRG** · 08-30-2012, 12:18 PM

The fun is gone, now most of the veterans are paaed away or not able to make it anymore, remember some 20 years or so ago, we stay in the bar until late after mignight listening to there stories

**Grimebox** · 08-30-2012, 07:48 PM

This is the FS knife that belonged to a Para who fought at and escaped from Arnhem. The knife was given to me by his son. The original owner of this knife never spoke to his son about the war other than on one occasion when his son asked what Arnhem was like, he replied words to effect of 'If you want to know what it's like to make a machine gun nest out of dead bodies I'll tell you' - No more was said on the subject. He was a little unusual in that he was Irish but joined the British Army. He met an English girl and married her and lived in a village. It is known that he was one of the soldiers who escaped Arnhem as he was shunned by the locals who lived in the village as he had escaped and returned uninjured. It is believed that he was a jump master, he certainly made a large number of jumps as when he returned to Ireland in the 1990's (he was in his eighties) he remarked that it was the first time that he had ever landed in an aeroplane!
The original owner is believed to have landed on D-Day (He was certainly in France) and his son recalled overhearing him talking to friends at a local working men's club about there wartime experiences. His son heard him say that he was in France and this young German jumped out the hedge in front of him, they stood there looking at each other before he shook his gun at him and told him to 'F@#* off', the young German did what he was told!
His son also told me about a Bren gun (identified as he saw mine) that was kept under the stairs for a while wrapped in sheet! Unfortunately as a child he found it and his mother told her husband to get rid of it, prior to disposing of it (who knows where) they took the Bren to a workshop/land that they had and he watched as his father and his uncle shot at a barrel which he stated 'flew 50ft into the air!'

**philip ABRG** · 08-30-2012, 08:23 PM

and the name of this para was? As I have a few remarks about he story, Oosterbeek was evacuated and so it was not possible for people to hide any men, this was far to risky, with all the germans.

If he was at D.Day he could never been at Arnhem, have heard one or two stories about that before, but always turn out to be incorrect

**Grimebox** · 08-30-2012, 09:24 PM

I can only go on what I have been told by his son. As stated he did not talk about the war and the above information is all that he could tell me about his wartime experiences because of this. His son vaguely recalled the locals shunning him as he had 'escaped' and come home uninjured (and he was also told this later in life by his mother - he would have been 7-8 years old at the time), the name 'Arnhem' is commonly used in reference to Operation Market Garden - I do not know where he landed and will bow to your greater knowledge if you say that he could not have escaped from there, likewise your comments on D-Day, although his son says he certainly stated he was in France when he made the comment about the young German.
I have purposely not named the original owner of the knife for personal reasons -The knife was gifted to me by his son who is a family friend so he has no ulteria motives in giving me false stories, likewise as already stated, his father was not one for war stories and did not talk about the war. As for me I have no interest in selling the knife nor any reason to make up any stories surrounding it (unless you feel I have given false information to jazz up a post!). I accept every story with a pinch of salt, especially given the lengths of time involved, however, I know the gentleman who gave me the knife very well and have no reason to doubt his integrity and that he gave me all of the (limited) information that he knew about his fathers service in good faith.

**hassiman** · 08-30-2012, 09:54 PM

I have always wondered why, when RAF recon flights detected the SS Panzer division which was on R&R in the area days before, the operation was not called off or postponed. I was later told that the infamously ego-maniacal Bernard Montgomery would have been made to look foolish, and so the operation went off as planned. I had an uncle who was a US para who told me lots about what they felt was a horrendously planned foul-up. He lost a lot of friends on that one.

**Rigormortis** · 08-30-2012, 11:20 PM

I think this mission was doomed for failure and no one paid attention to or cared about all the red flags on this mission. The intelligence reports of the SS divisions in the area,the fact there were not enough planes and gliders to drop the whole force at once on the same day, having to drop troops 7 or so miles out from Arnhem due to AA defenses thus losing most elements of surprise. I think the potential gains that could be achieved from success and maybe the fact it was Monty's plan had outweighed or just made them overlook the warning signs that were present for postponement or cancellation of this operation. And the troops paid for this, greatly. I've talked to a lot of vets but never had the honor of meeting one that was in this operation.

**Thanatos** · 08-31-2012, 03:46 AM

by hassiman

I have always wondered why, when RAF recon flights detected the SS Panzer division which was on R&R in the area days before, the operation was not called off or postponed. I was later told that the infamously ego-maniacal Bernard Montgomery would have been made to look foolish, and so the operation went off as planned. I had an uncle who was a US para who told me lots about what they felt was a horrendously planned foul-up. He lost a lot of friends on that one.

The II SS Panzer Corps was sent to Arnhem and Eindoven for refit not R&R after being decimated during the Falaise Gap debarcle.They had lost most of their armour and heavy weapons during their retreat from France.Maybe this is one of the reasons the intel was rejected.The Brits were aware of the fact the SS corps was there but may have assumed it was a non effective fighting force.
Monty wanted a quick end to the war and this was his chance to cross the Rhine and enter Germany in 1944.
I feel Monty has always looked upon as a poor European theatre commander by the US due to his "lack of aggression"but his logic was simple.His men had been at war since 1939 and he was not going to throw away their lives so close to the end game.This op was the exception, bold and aggressive, maybe to bold.

**AmericanKraut** · 08-31-2012, 03:58 AM

Not to get off topic on the historical discussion, but
I will have to try to get pictures of my elder friends motorcycle. He served in the military in Holland for a while and stayed a few months there. In that time he became friends with an older gentleman (at the time). He showed him a motorcycle in his barn that was "used" in Market Garden according to the gent, It had bullet holes through the gas tank. My friend ended up purchasing it and got it shipped to the US, since then he has restored it but modernized it :'(

**philip ABRG** · 08-31-2012, 10:11 AM

by Grimebox

I can only go on what I have been told by his son. As stated he did not talk about the war and the above information is all that he could tell me about his wartime experiences because of this. His son vaguely recalled the locals shunning him as he had 'escaped' and come home uninjured (and he was also told this later in life by his mother - he would have been 7-8 years old at the time), the name 'Arnhem' is commonly used in reference to Operation Market Garden - I do not know where he landed and will bow to your greater knowledge if you say that he could not have escaped from there, likewise your comments on D-Day, although his son says he certainly stated he was in France when he made the comment about the young German.
I have purposely not named the original owner of the knife for personal reasons -The knife was gifted to me by his son who is a family friend so he has no ulteria motives in giving me false stories, likewise as already stated, his father was not one for war stories and did not talk about the war. As for me I have no interest in selling the knife nor any reason to make up any stories surrounding it (unless you feel I have given false information to jazz up a post!). I accept every story with a pinch of salt, especially given the lengths of time involved, however, I know the gentleman who gave me the knife very well and have no reason to doubt his integrity and that he gave me all of the (limited) information that he knew about his fathers service in good faith.

No need to apoligese, you were given a knife and a story, and assumed it was correct, but if you can give me a name, in a pm if you want too, I can see if I can check this out in my data base, and other sources, to see if he was at Arnhem, I knew many arnhem veterans, and heard many stories, but sometimes, they heard a story from another so many times, they got it mixed up (age and time), I also can be wrong, so if we can confirm at least the name, maybe that give more details

- - Updated - -

would it be a british one or and US and, and do you have a place/location, because the Market Garden route was a long one