Black Leather Coat of the 10th Motorized Cavalry Brigade

[A.J. Zawadzki]

. . . PS. perhaps we need someone to post a thread on the black leather coat used by the 10th BK.

Good call dastier. Here are the pertinent posts in order along with both pictures.

BTW Pat ... Would you be able to provide details of the leather coat (ie dimensions, where to get repro buttons, size of the epaulettes, etc - I'm going to need to alter a leather coat for my display). Thanks.

If i remember corectly that was all original items and the photo session was arranged specialy for this article. Unfortunately it was made in early 90's so there is no chance to getting more informations about details. It was published in "Archeologia Wojskowa" no.1 from june 1992 in article about Sokol 1000 by Jan Tarczynski.

Here is another example from one of museums in Warsaw:
Attachment 283541

Thanks Pat. I do notice some differences between the coat from the museum and the one from "Archeologia Wojskowa". Do you know if there was local variations from manufacturer to manufacturer or were there detailed army/government requirements for the manufacturers to follow? For example the shoulder epaulettes on the museum coat seem to go past the edge of the shoulder. Also the length of the museum coat goes past the knees whereas the one in "Archeologia Wojskowa" seems to stop at the knees or slightly above. (shorter for motorcyclists?). Also the strap on the sleeve seems higher on the motorcyclist's coat though it may just be pushed up by his gauntlets. This may seem picky but if I'm going to alter a modern leather coat for my display I want to get it right. Thanks. . . .

The pattern was only one in 1939 - wz.36. Differences betwen the museum and outside photos are caused by different sizes mostly. One is a bit bigger, the other too short. Here is how it looked like:

Attachment 284635

Thanks Pat. Do you know if the drawings are to scale? If so I can work out proportions from it. I can see that there are only two outside slash pockets. Do you know the number and arrangement of the buttons and whether or not they were inscribed with the Polish Eagle as on uniforms? Is there an inside map pocket for instance? Also what kind of material is used for the collar? Cotton? Wool? What kind of stamps or markings would be on the liner? Brass buckles or some other metal? Number of belt loops?

Apologies for asking a lot of questions. (FYI - I have a book on Finnish uniforms and it is very specific on the uniform changes - was hoping there might be something similar for Polish uniforms.)

I think this should be discussed in a separate thread on leather coats of the 10th BK though - there is potential for interested parties to miss this info as its in a helmet thread.

[A.J. Zawadzki]

Here are some pics saved from an auction from several years back for what appears to be a pre-war made wz.36 pattern military coat. This one sold for over $1000. The item description along with pictures (sorry, they are quite small) provide some details about the construction.

Regards,
Tony

[dastier]

Thanks for setting up the thread Tony. Those are great photos as well. I had thought the collar was cotton or wool now I know its black suede. Removable liner! Also the buckles have rusted so obviously not brass. And I did not know about the sword hanger at all.

Anyone know what the button arrangement and numbers were? Are they embossed with the Polish Eagle? Metal, plastic or? More photos please. Thanks.

[A.J. Zawadzki]

. . . I did not know about the sword hanger at all . . .

More likely for a wz.24/37 dagger.

Regards,
Tony

[pat15567]

All details of this jacket were published officialy in Dziennik Rozkazów MS Wojsk at December 9th 1936. That was official order from Military Affairs Department. There is also detailed description and all important drawings (this one i've uploaded here). Jacket's collar should be made of black wool (upper side) and leather (lower side).

Here is this description from the order:



Main problem with this type of jacket is that they were very popular after the war. Even military after war version existed and many many others produced for civil market. Those made after war are very similar, sometimes identical - in very of them some details are changed so it's better to be very careful with buying them. Please notice that this one from ebay showed above got brown lining - detail non existing pre war. After war military jackets got those linings. So there is a strong chance that only tailor's tag is pre war

[A.J. Zawadzki]

. . . Main problem with this type of jacket is that they were very popular after the war. Even military after war version existed and many many others produced for civil market. Those made after war are very similar, sometimes identical - in very of them some details are changed so it's better to be very careful with buying them. Please notice that this one from ebay showed above got brown lining - detail non existing pre war. After war military jackets got those linings. So there is a strong chance that only tailor's tag is pre war

Exactly. Everything listed on the market claiming to be of pre-war vintage must be approached very carefully. As would be expected, any such articles of clothing surviving the wartime and postwar years in Poland are exceptionally rare, and it is a area ripe for counterfeiting.

The good news dastier is that you may be able to find one of the post war examples bearing pre-war details that would be ideal for your display. Although I can imagine that this search for even a post war example may take some time and effort.

Regards,
Tony

[dastier]

Well what I'm thinking is to take an old leather coat that belonged to my father and have it altered for my display. It won't be authentic but then neither will my M17 helmet. The intent will be to convey a sense of what my father wore and how he was equipped in the prewar 10th BK and then later in the 1st Polish Armoured Division in 1944. Ideally I would have original authentic items but this might be too expensive or impossible to acquire.

On the plus side I have been able to obtain a canteen, gas mask, ammo pouches, P.W.K. Radom wz 98, and a German capture F.B. Radom wz 29 with German captured wz 1939 bayonet.

I have a German bread bag that I plan to alter, an Austrian M17 helmet and the aforementioned leather coat.

I will still need to acquire many items: beret, Polish Eagle cap badge and rank insignia, uniforms, etc... some will have to be reproductions. I am still trying to find out what badge was worn by the reconnaissance unit.

I know he was in the reconnaissance unit of the 10th BK as he mentioned riding motorcycles so I will use photos of the Polish Sokol motorcycle in my display.

As my father fought in the West I can also display the uniform he wore while a member of the 10th Dragoons. I have the jacket, Dragoon badge, his medals, papers, ID tags, an Enfield No. 4 Mk 1* and a deactivated Sten SMG. (however my father said he was armed with a Thompson SMG and even deactivated - those are expensive.) Plus his wartime photos from training in Scotland. Ideally I'd also like to acquire a deactivated BREN LMG as I have pictures of my father in a BREN carrier and cleaning a BREN barrel.

I would need to find British or Canadian webbing and a helmet plus other items but those are at least available on this side of the pond.

Is it possible to obtain a translation of Dziennik Rozkazów MS Wojsk and the pertinent drawings as I do not read Polish (sad but true).

[A.J. Zawadzki]

Ideally I would have original authentic items but this might be too expensive or impossible to acquire.

In the case of the leather coat I’d agree that it’s pretty well an impossibility. Uniform items were disposed when the brigade crossed the border into Hungary during the third week of 1939 and the members embarked on their journeys to fight the Germans again alongside the Allies. The only one I have ever seen, and even that one is not 100% certain to be authentic, is the one pictured earlier.

. . . I am still trying to find out what badge was worn by the reconnaissance unit.

Try to find out if his recon unit was attached to one of the two regiments that formed the 10BK (either the 24PU or the 10PSK). If this could be determined he may have been awarded one of these regimental badges. Experts on the 10BK organization would be able to help out. Do you have any of his pre-war documents? Armoured corps soldiers wore the ‘Znak Pancerny’, so it’s possible he could have had this badge (pictured below). What rank was your father during the September Campaign?

As my father fought in the West I can also display the uniform he wore while a member of the 10th Dragoons. I have the jacket, Dragoon badge, his medals, papers, ID tags,

Are these his original items? Any chance at seeing some pics?

I would need to find British or Canadian webbing and a helmet plus other items but those are at least available on this side of the pond.

Webbing and other period kit remains relatively common. A 1st Armoured Division helmet bearing a genuine eagle is another matter, although there are stencils now made to easily make a replica.

Regards,
Tony

[dastier]

Try to find out if his recon unit was attached to one of the two regiments that formed the 10BK (either the 24PU or the 10PSK). If this could be determined he may have been awarded one of these regimental badges. Experts on the 10BK organization would be able to help out. Do you have any of his pre-war documents? Armoured corps soldiers wore the ‘Znak Pancerny’, so it’s possible he could have had this badge (pictured below). What rank was your father during the September Campaign?

No prewar documents but I do have a prewar photograph of my father in his coat with beret - not sure if any rank is on the beret though. I have Nowak's book on the 10th Dragoons coming so I'll check it for possible references.

Are these his original items? Any chance at seeing some pics?

Absolutely original as issued to my father. I have photographs of him in England in his battledress blouse, his fibre board ID tags, the documentation for his awards, his paybook, plus a Polish-English phrase book, period map of Scotland, prayer book and a few other items. I have all his medals except for the French ones. Plus a few other Polish ones sent post war by the Poles in London and the Polish government.

Here are a few photos of his blouse with ribbons and 10th Dragoons badge. Colour is washed out - I need a better camera as mine will not focus more closely. His KW ribbon is moth eaten, the uniform slightly, and his wound ribbon with 2 stars has fallen off.



Last pic is adjusted in an attempt to counter the flash washout. The backing of the badge is orange not yellow. And the pennons on the collars have a faded green stripe in the middle as the reconnaissance pennon colours are Amaranth/Green/Orange.

There were Polish Army technical books with the ‘Znak Pancerny’ on them that I remember seeing as a child. Also other books about the 1st Armored Division and what I think was a paperback Division Association journal in orange and blue/white striped paper. Not sure what happen to these.

[A.J. Zawadzki]

Dastier, you’re a lucky man to have your father’s original BD tunic, along with all documentation. On discharge from the 2nd Corps after transfer to England in 1947 my father said he was given civilian clothes and required to turn his uniform in. Fortunately, I do have his documents and other items. It would be great to see your father’s documents as well. Is the wound bar lost?

Thanks for sharing these pics

Cheers,
Tony