The Changing Map of Poland

[Gary J]

Yes .... It was a total mess ...
Various powers in either a major or minor role attempting to appease a future "predicted" political climate before it developed, fully knowing the Polish question was a "hot potato".

.. And of course the irony of no Polish presence

"The Old Boys club .. round a table .. late at night, .. smoking cigars, drinking whiskey ...."
How cordial ...

Gary J.

Agree, but we are not dealing with empires but regular nation - Poland in 1939.
In 1939, Poland was a sovereign nation recognized by the rest of the world with borders.
The borders were redrawn in 1943, without consent of Poles.

[Reynard]

Old maps are truly dangerous!

If only for the purpose of an addictive debate

And in that case, how much of France should actually belong to England? It's exactly what Gary J says - nothing is set in stone.

[Cenowski]

It's exactly what Gary J says - nothing is set in stone.

The Eastern Boarders on the '39 map were certainly set in stone, its just that people drew and forced a new one on a people who were not in a position to do much about it at the time.

I wonder what many countries views are on the situation now, as more and more comes to the forefront of the wrong doings in Yalta and the crimes of the soviets spread more academically.

The Dayton peace accord in Bosnia was drawn on Ethnic lines, and new states have emerged in the 2000's not even formally recognized by most(Osettia, Abkazia, Kosovo, Transdnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh, Autonimous Basque countries), yet its still being done to many countries along majority status. The only issue is of course that soviets deported most of the Polish from the Kresy to implement there plan which they had from the beginning. Maybe the key lies in phase one of re-populating the areas as much as possible, gaining Political representation and making a majority in Kresy areas to then try and rejoin it to Poland. Lithuania is already part way if my thinking was taken forward. Ethnic Polish already make up 6.6% of a country of only 3 million something, russians 5.1. With economic migrants and slowing birth rate im dont see the Lithuanian state lasting.

That is not of course an ignorance to the Lithuanian as a whole its just Lithuania minus the land that makes the Kresy.

[StefanM]

However go back 20 years in time to 1919 and the Polish Eastern borders were not set in stone at all they only became "set" after the ending of the Polish-Soviet War which defined the Eastern border under the Treaty of Riga in which a large portion of the Pale Settlement, together with its Jewish population, became part of Poland. The Jews of the Pale were also not in a position to do anything about it nor were the Ukranians or Byleorussians. The boundaries of the Pale of Settlement created in 1791 as a territory for Russian Jews to live were set in stone and so on. Which I think is the point Gary was making; that national boundaries come and go, mainly by force of arms, as the recent examples you provide ably demonstrate.

[Cenowski]

Exactly that, fought for, not an over the table deal by other powers like the Kresy of the II Rzeczpospolita.

I had forgotten about the pale settlement, Russia's very own ghetto for those unwanted.

Yes .... It was a total mess ...
Various powers in either a major or minor role attempting to appease a future "predicted" political climate before it developed, fully knowing the Polish question was a "hot potato".

.. And of course the irony of no Polish presence

"The Old Boys club .. round a table .. late at night, .. smoking cigars, drinking whiskey ...."
How cordial ...

Gary J.

Shame there was no ticking case under that table, least that would of been some sort of minimal consolation to it all.

[StefanM]

I had forgotten about the pale settlement, Russia's very own ghetto for those unwanted.

It was the reason that many of the Jewish population in what became Eastern Poland after the Treaty of Riga were more disposed towards the Russians in September 1939 than the Polish nation ...they did not consider themselves Polish just because a new Polish border had been imposed on them, most were Russian Jews who had previously been in the Pale with fairly autonomous control of their own affairs.

[Cenowski]

The treaty of Riga is also said to be of a disaster but at least it was involving Poland, the Wars winner. It was political divisions with a bit of interference elsewhere that didn't allow all of the territorial gains to be kept. The whole Piłsudski vision and that of the National Democrats was a huge factor to the Eastern boarders, however they were set as of a treaty and agreed and signed. Unfortunately the Polish stuck in soviet russia didnt benifit from the treaty.

[StefanM]

Given that these Eastern territories were only taken by Polish force of arms—with land gifted to those soldiers who fought by way of a reward—it is not surprising that Sikorski was willing to negotiate these conquered former Pale of Settlement lands away for peace with Russia and of course for territorial gains from Germany in the West, lands which became known as "recovered lands" as a way of suggesting they were somehow lost to Poland rather than as compensation at the expense of a defeated Germany.

[meyle77]

parts of recovered lands were known before the war as westerm kresy - kresy zachodnie.

[Reynard]

I've got a whole crate of propaganda pamphlets that were printed in the UK during the war and I'm fairly certain that the majority of them are on the "Polish Problem". I'll have a rummage in the box if you gentlemen could use the info etc - have only recently dug them out and haven't had too close a look yet.