The Katyn Forest Massacre

[Wagriff]

Interesting. You especially have to love the irony of the Bristol papers comment.
"POLES TO AVENGE KATYN
“... AVENGE KATYN SOLDIERS of the Polish Brigade fighting with the Red Army are making a collection for tanks from which units named ... ”
________________________________________Mon 07 Feb 1944, Western Daily Press, Bristol, England "

[dastier]

It it is not forgotten or unknown to Polacy, but most most of Western Europe and the world yes. Like i said before, most Western European countries teach history that isnt full in content or true, as if they are scared to upset certain countries or create a political row. Katyń is only one part of mass of crimes committed by the soviets against the Polish people. Unfortunately the knowledge of these crimes are little known. It is the same in the way people outside of Poland don't really know about the Polish-ukranian ethnic conflict during from WW2 onwards. The yugo wars which were one sided on the media, was widespread televised and covered by 100 of films, books and so on, however much of what happened in most of Eastern Europe is hard come by outside of Poland, ukraine, russia and so on.

Plus many people in the West get distorted history lessons from Hollywood and other mass media manipulators not interested in accuracy.

Interesting. You especially have to love the irony of the Bristol papers comment.
"POLES TO AVENGE KATYN
“... AVENGE KATYN SOLDIERS of the Polish Brigade fighting with the Red Army are making a collection for tanks from which units named ... ”
________________________________________Mon 07 Feb 1944, Western Daily Press, Bristol, England "

Made me think of Orwellian doublespeak.

[Scout]

Plus many people in the West get distorted history lessons from Hollywood .................................................. ..

Come on now, its a well known fact, that 'Pearl Harbour' and 'U-571' were spot on!

[meyle77]

especially u-571 !

[operaman]

So are you saying that Pearl Harbor is Hollywood "propaganda" I guess we on this side of the pond could say that the Blitz and Dunkirk were the imagination of Pine wood studios in London.

[slados28]

Re-read his post and the previous ones and I think you'll find he was referring more to the lack of historical accuracy in these movies rather than commenting on the actual events they were based on... "Pearl Harbor", the movie, was a steaming pile of dung if you ask me.. haven't seen that other one so I can't really comment.

[slados28]

For a Polish audience that would be a case for using this poster image and the key words given similar anti-semitic propaganda about "Jewish-Bolshevism" that was produced in pre-WWII Poland, however as mentioned in earlier posts it would been typeset in the Polish language not just German or it would have been bilingual as many posters and proclamations were in occupied Poland.

Again if it was supposed to be motivational for German troops to fight harder why use this weak "Katyn" imagery when the Red Army was busy raping and pillaging its way across Eastern Europe and heading into Germany... where it was ready to likewise rape your grandmother, mother, wife and daughters? IMO this would more likely have been the propaganda or motivational message for German troops not the murder of enemy Polish PoWs by another enemy.

I have probably been guilty, although quite unintentionally, of subverting this thread for which I duly apologise and will bow out what has been a most enjoyable conversation

I don't think the picture of grinning NKVD officers executing innocent Polish officers etc. and dumping them in mass-graves would have been considered "weak", even back in those days. As I see it this was just another of many other angles that the Nazi's utilized in order to invoke fear of/hatred towards the Soviet state and thereby strengthen support for the ongoing war against Jewish Bolshevism (among many other things), both with civilians and the regular soldier... in this case they even had irrefutable proof to back it up.
It's not like this was the Nazi propaganda machine's only angle of attack, I'm relatively sure that there were numerous other posters depicting the suggested topics of rape, looting and whatever other atrocity they could come up with on behalf of the Stalinist Soviet state.

As long as the propaganda was effective it didn't really matter all that much if the topics were 100% rooted in reality or not, but in this case they had the perfect opportunity to showcase the "JUDE NKVD" as the beasts that they had been making them out to be... with solid proof to back it up.

As far as the language thing goes, are we certain that there weren't any Polish language versions out there? Either way I see this poster being as effective towards Germans as any other population out there regardless of any language barriers. The imagery in itself should be enough to get the picture of what they were trying to get across..

[Wagriff]

The name "NKVD" was well known by the German population of the era. They were the "scary ones" who were to be avoided like the plague. The beast-like subhuman forms used in the poster illustrate this and their perceived reputation quite well. Bolshevik was also widely used, but NKVD was equally well used. The poster shows what the Germans generally felt or were told about the Russian peasants and how they were regarded by them. And, if they had a good chance to toss in Jews as well into the slurring poster title, all the better, they figured. The NKVD, the Kommisars, Bolsheviks....all interchangeable derogatory sneers for their hated enemies.

[StefanM]

The name "NKVD" was well known by the German population of the era. They were the "scary ones" who were to be avoided like the plague. The beast-like subhuman forms used in the poster illustrate this and their perceived reputation quite well. Bolshevik was also widely used, but NKVD was equally well used. The poster shows what the Germans generally felt or were told about the Russian peasants and how they were regarded by them. And, if they had a good chance to toss in Jews as well into the slurring poster title, all the better, they figured. The NKVD, the Kommisars, Bolsheviks....all interchangeable derogatory sneers for their hated enemies.

If the name "NKVD" was well known by the German population one would reasonably expect a search of the Bundesarchiv digital image library to have some reference of the term in one of its 193,000 online files but unfortunately it does not.

Of course there are probably millions of files not yet digitised which might well have a million references to "NKVD" in propaganda posters and news sheets which demonstrates that NKVD was a widely known term for German public in WWII

There are some Katyn propaganda sheets which do however have references to Jüdischer Bolschewismus perpetrators... as one would expect but not "JUDE NKVD" or "NKVD" so far... apart from Tony's poster.

A further thought? Is the heading grammatically correct as written in German, would it not be " "Jüdisch'...", "Jüdischer...", " jüdischen..." (ie. Jewish NKVD) or similar adjective rather than written using the noun "Jude" (ie. JEW NKVD)?

From the Bundesarchiv:




New documention of the Jewish-Bolshevik bloody regime!




More association with Jewish Bolshevism



Great Warning!

I don't think the picture of grinning NKVD officers executing innocent Polish officers etc. and dumping them in mass-graves would have been considered "weak", even back in those days.

It would not have been, and was not, a weak message for Poles but we are considering its relevance to the German general public.

If the purpose of propaganda is to gain empathy with its target audience for the message being conveyed and the intended target audience of this particular Katyn poster was the German population (given the use of German "JUDE NKVD heading) then for that reason alone it is a weak image/message.

My contention is, what empathy did the German population have with Polish soldiers or Poles? They were "untermensch" and had been murdered and enslaved by the Germans for three years before Katyn without much empathy from the German public! So why would the German propagandists choose the image of one "untermensch" being executed by another "untermensch" instead of more powerful images more directly related to the target audience... IMO it doesn't make sense given that the German's were masters of targeted propaganda themes like the two anti-bolshevik posters attached.

Also included is the one anti-NKVD poster I did find and which I think was for Ukraine(?), who would like the Poles certainly known about the "NKVD" murderers!

[dastier]

So are you saying that Pearl Harbor is Hollywood "propaganda" I guess we on this side of the pond could say that the Blitz and Dunkirk were the imagination of Pine wood studios in London.

I'm guessing operaman, that you've never seen this particular 'war flick'.

especially u-571 !