What sidearms used officially and unofficially by the Polish 1st Armoured Division?

[Battery Command Post]

Dastier, have a look on that gun again, lad. It has clearly visible P.38 features.

I agree, it's a Walther P38

Firstly, Rob, I've got the same question to you, namely, do you know any case of private sidearm purchase made by a Polish Forces officer or is this just your theory?

It's not a theory, it's standard military practice... basic stuff. Officers pay for their uniforms and equipment. They have a system of allowances to offset costs, laid down by Regulations for the Allowances of the Army, and varying circumstances where certain items are issued at public expense, laid down by Equipment Regulations. Polish officers would have existed under the same regulations, as the Polish Forces were, operationally, under British control.

Secondly I disagree with you on the subject of the 1937 pattern holster "generic" idea, as I've seen a few holsters of this pattern made to fit nothing but a revolver due to its narrow barrel securing part which is too tight to put a pistol slide into it. This holster part's shaped just like the one in the P'37 Web Holster for Small-Frame Revolver rather than the barrel holster part in the P'37 Web "Tanker" Holster. Though similar revolver holsters were AFAIK issued mainly to the RAF, after a glimpse, I'd say the MP from the pic has got one himself, so dastier's assumption on him having a No2 revolver in this case might be quite accurate.

I'm not trying to be funny, but I really don't understand what you are saying here. Basic facts: there were not multiple types of 1937 Ptn Pistol Cases (holsters), there was ONE type. Furthermore, there is no such thing as a P'37 Web Holster for Small-Frame Revolver or a P'37 Web "Tanker" Holster.

In addition to the 1937 Ptn Pistol Case, there was the Case, Pistol, Web, RAC in its early long version (Mk I) and later short version (Mk II). The Canadian-made 1937 Ptn Pistol Case was different, but this was not due to anything other than the fact that Canadian factories like ZL&T (Zephyr) could not reproduce the 'integral weave' process of MECo (Mills) or MW&S (Wright) that was necessary to produce what is a very complicated piece of weaving.

As for the fit of a 'pistol slide', there is a photo in a post above showing a Colt 1911 and the 1937 Ptn Pistol Case that it was used with, to a named British medical officer.

Rob

[Battery Command Post]

I do know from the photo I posted that one British officer had a Colt M1911A1. How did he obtain it?

In fact, the British government purchased thousands of auto and revolver pistols from US manufacturers, primarily Colt, Smith & Wesson and Iver Johnson. Total number is estimated at over 400,000 units.

I agree, its most likely the vast majority of Polish troops used standard issue weapons: Pistol, Revolver No 1 (.455 Webley), Pistol, Revolver No 2 (.38 Enfield) or Pistol, Revolver, .38 (.38 Webley Mk IV).

Rob

[Thomas the Tank Engine]

It's not a theory, it's standard military practice... basic stuff. Officers pay for their uniforms and equipment. They have a system of allowances to offset costs, laid down by Regulations for the Allowances of the Army, and varying circumstances where certain items are issued at public expense, laid down by Equipment Regulations. Polish officers would have existed under the same regulations, as the Polish Forces were, operationally, under British control.

You're right, Poles operatad under British command, but equpment was paid by the Polish Government in exile, so I suppose the officials provided sidearms for Polish officers too. In order to get some information on this subject I talked today with the last living wartime Carpathian Lancer officer, who told me, that he has never heard that Polish officers had to pay for their sidearms. I also asked him about his thoughts on the pistol thread and he told me he had used two official issue revolvers in Italy. One was a Smith & Wesson and another was a Colt revolver. Unfortunately he didn't remember neither their official designation nor the cal. He used a "tanker holster", or a Case, Pistol, Web, RAC, Mk II, with cut-off holster ending to shoot the revolver on the spot if necessary. He also remebered many Polish officers using captured Italian pistols with holsters during the siege of Tobruk.

I'm not trying to be funny, but I really don't understand what you are saying here. Basic facts: there were not multiple types of 1937 Ptn Pistol Cases (holsters), there was ONE type. Furthermore, there is no such thing as a P'37 Web Holster for Small-Frame Revolver or a P'37 Web "Tanker" Holster.

I've read your previous post on holsters and their formal designation, Rob, but I used the caption names from the mentioned before candiansoldiers website so other viewers could know which holster shape I was refering to.

Regards,
Tom

[dorava]

the Colt was used a lot by the Poles

[Piwo2]

In General Sosabowski's Book, Proudly I Served shortly after he arrived in England he describes visiting a pawn shop to purchase his own sidearm

Years later, after the war ended he was visited by a local Constable inquiring about the pistol. He informed them he no longer had it for it was in the Warsaw Museum.

There some interesting photo of Polish officers wearing denim tank suits with leather Sam Brown belts and revolvers in leather holsters hanging from the double leather straps as might be worn by officers in walking out dress. I believe the photo had been taken in England in training. It may have been in Sosabowski's book. I will have to search for it.

[Thomas the Tank Engine]

AFAIR on the Polish Armed Forces exhibition at the Polish Army Museum in Warsaw you can see a lange Pistole 08 or Artillery Luger which belonged to General Sosabowski. I suppose this gun was Market Garden booty.
In the book For King and Country by Harlan Glenn on p. 183 there's a pic showing a Polish Para 2nd Lieutenant equipped with a longer pistol holster and a magazine pouch suggesting he's armed with a .45 automatic. On p. 152 the author explains, that

the .45 could be carried in a specially lengthened P-37 revolver holster which was 1" longer than the rounded flap P-37 revolver holster.

I can also recall a pic sold on allegro some time ago showing a Polish para armed with a .45 automatic in a non-regulation leather belt holster.

Regards,
Tom

[dastier]

Glad to see that we are getting more info on official and unofficial sidearms used by the Polish Forces in the West.

Dorava, when you mention Colt are you referring to the Colt 1911 pistol? Colt also made revolvers, the 'New Service' was produced in .455 Webley for the British and Canadians during WW1 and was apparently still in U.S. service (.45 Colt or .45 ACP?) during WW2.

[Piwo2]

I have enclosed some photos of original Pattern 37 web holsters for both automatics and revolvers. They are original Canadian ( C Broad Arrow) and British ( Broad Arrow proof marked ) and dated.

I used real pistols to show that both the Colt government 45 and Webley Mk.IV would fit in the same holster. However, the Webley Mk VI does need a larger holster and the Government Colt 45 fits better in the larger holster.

The tanker holster is reproduction but the cut down one is riginal Canadian C broad arrow marked. Also included are the two version of the Canadian P35 Browning Hi-Power Inglis pistol

I .

[Piwo2]

" We were terribly short of ordinary equipment for infantry training. Ammunition and explosives we had to scrounge. Some fo the officers acquired pistols by devious means and, in order to get ammunition, took out civilian licences. Many years later, in 1948, a policeman knocked at my door of my London house to ask why I had not renewed my firearms license. I told him not to worry, the pistol had long been in an exhibit in the Polish War Museum."
pg 104 Proudly I Served, Major General Stanislaw Sosabowski

[prosty zolnierz]

a Carpathian Lancer