Relics from a ME 109, HELP PLEASE???

[sebfrench76]

This very kinda relics are the dream of Luftwaffe collectors and i believe dreams don't come true.....Fake for me also...

[AMTG]

Even as repro, they would look nice behind my bar.....but I wouldn't pay much for them

[VERSUCH]

Fake.
If it did come from a Bf109,the swastika is missing signs of at least
two horizontal ribs together with the rivets to hold it,the "flush" rivets
on the outside ..must show inside....
Regards Mike

[harry211]

fake was well...always suspicious straight away when it just happens to be from a "high value" squadron - as others have said if it seems too good to be true it probably is.. Here is a link to a tail swaz sold on the Collectors Guild (advertised at $3,700 )

Spot the differences

The Collector's Guild

Sad truth is that if there is money in it, people can and will try to fake anything.

[Matt L]

Right- the most obvious issue is that the tail fin of a Bf109 had a removable 'cap'- so fully 1/3 of the top of the Hakenkreuz is on different piece of aluminum than the main body- the Collector's Guild photo shows it clearly. A real one either has that section, or, on some I've seen, is lacking that bit so is only 2/3 of a Hakenkreuz. It's also the case that the ribs and internal bracing of smaller aircraft like fighters is pretty close together so there aren't a lot of areas of skin that wouldn't have some behind- so you either get bits of rib/bracing on the back, again like the Collector's Guild photo, or you get holes where the rivets were popped when the skin was separated. These are pretty nicely-done fakes paintwise, but they totally blew the airframe component aspect.

When looking at pieces like these, it's vital to get sufficiently good images of intact aircraft or plans that show rivet patterns and internal components for comparison.

[NickM]

The Richthofen plate looks original to me. Colour looks right, as is the size. I would also expect it to have some slight curvature if it has come off an aircraft.
I can't see someone going to the trouble of making a fake of something that really doesn't have much of a value. If they were going to make a fake, would they go to the trouble of attaching rivet holes?

[Matt L]

Not much value? Where have you seen real things like this for less than several hundred dollars or even a thousand plus- I'd LOVE to get some LOL The reverse photo is the important bit- I don't see any rivet shanks or even holes; that's not the least bit right. Especially the staggered double row should be connected to something significant but there's not a hint of it- for the rivet heads to remain, the shanks have to be there and have to be torn away from whatever they joined this bit of skin to- even if someone weirdly ground the back down to make it flush, the rivet heads would fall out. Nothing about the piece looks right structurally...

[Nitram]

Pieces like this, when original are very very valuable. This isn't say, a helmet of which 500,000 were made. This is an aircraft from a squadron that had, what, 100 planes?

I stand by my earlier conclusion, that it's fake, for the reasons Matt pointed out.

[Matt L]

Indeed- just a couple of days ago I came across a site that had a number of '109 and '190 tail Hakenkreuze for sale- real ones- and I was shocked at the prices $4000-$5000...