Visor Caps

**Redcoat** · 02-09-2016, 06:01 PM

Firstly I did not meen to upset anyone I was just curious as to why they (plastic) is never mentioned when it comes to visors as they clearly dd exist . This is taken from the Imperial War Museum aho clearly differentiate between the different materials used for Visors "

Catalogue number

UNI 11250

Display status
IWM London
Production date
1938
Materials

badge: metal
band: velvet
cap: cloth
peak: plastic

Alternative Names

FULL NAME: cap, -Dienstmutzen, black, Allgemeine SS, Obergruppenfuhrer 1938
SIMPLE NAME: headdress, German

Creator

Erel, Berlin

Category
uniforms and insignia

This cap was part of the uniform worn by the SS. The SS were Hitler's personal bodyguard and the elite of the Nazi private army. When the Nazis came to power, the SS rapidly gained in strength, becoming the key instrument of terror and control. On Hitler's orders they murdered leaders of the rival SA during the 'Night of the Long Knives' (30 June 1934). The SS took charge of the concentration camps in June 1934 and gradually consolidated them into five permanent complexes. By 1936 their leader Heinrich Himmler had also taken control of the police, including the notorious Gestapo.
History note

Erel were one of the best military cap makers in German and numbered amongst their customers Hermann Wilhelm Goering.
Physical description

Black fine wool cap with black velvet cap band, black plastic peak, silver piping around crown and top and bottom of velvet cap band and silver cap cords. The eagle and skull and crossbones badges in silver metal. Inside the crown of the cap SS symbol in gold and white. (Related items: cap, badges and cap cords)
(a) stamped (in leather sweatband (b) printed (on label inside crown of cap) (c) stamped (in ink on inside of peak)

(a) Erel Patent Stirnschutz (b) Sonder-Anfertigung (c) RZM SS
Associated people and organisations

Allgemeine SS

I'll try and upload a photograph later. Similarly, I have come across other references to `plastic' peaks' elswhere.

Similarly, this is a Waffen SS Generals Cap on display at The Imperial War Museum, another one that does not meet the with many `expert' oppinions. As can see, not only is the cap unusual but the IPW uite clearly differentiate between the materials used between the cap above and this one which theys state is `Fibor'. I hope you find this of interest!

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 02-09-2016 06:01 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**douglas2496** · 02-09-2016, 07:18 PM

Thanks for your reply. This is very likely to be a mistake on the IWM website. Clearly there is a great deal of expertise within the museum, which is an institution I am very familiar with, and I have a museum background myself. However, their website has many errors. I have just spent five minutes looking at their site and noticed the following;

They seem to think a Swedish Carl Gustav Sub machine Gun is a Thompson M1A1. This is easy to check and the guns are quiet different.

Thompson M1A1 (FIR 6037)

They also dont know the difference between Soviet ssh39 and ssh40 helmets, which in this case can be determined by the position of the liner rivetts;

steel helmet USSR pattern M1940 (UNI 8749)

And I doubt this is a Waffen SS 1935 pattern helmet but I will leave my colleagues to confirm that one;

steel helmet pattern M1935 Waffen SS (UNI 474)

also the example you give says the peak is plastic and also leather at different points on the same page.

cap -Dienstmutzen black Allgemeine SS Obergruppenfuhrer 1938 (UNI 11250)

I rest my case.

**CBH** · 02-09-2016, 07:34 PM

Just pick up a few of the many Plastic Peaks that litter your island and send us a photo or two , natural light please .
Cheers , glad to see your still alive

**BOB COLEMAN** · 02-09-2016, 07:43 PM

Museums are full of errors and this is just another example. The black cap is just that, a black cap. The idiot who wrote the description does not understand that Allgemeine SS is a branch of the SS and not a description of the article. Sorry but your information from the museum is inaccurate. You are dealing with collectors who have studied the subject for 40-60 years and frankly know a lot more than some anonymous museum employee and volunteer. Who is to say that the said object is even genuine. Further, I do not think that we need a history lesson as we are all quite aware of the history and formation of the SS. I must agree that this thread is total rubbish.

**Wilhelm Saris** · 02-09-2016, 07:56 PM

I think there is no need to further discuss. The IWM says plastic and Redcoat thinks this is correct.
By the way the IWM mentions the badge to be from metal. Yeah, yeah: great description also.
As mentioned before: not ever seen an original manufacturing-regulation. That causes the problem!

Here a part from a 1939 RZM-regulation about the visor for (Allgemeine) SS:

and so I can continue, NSKK frontleaders cap:

I can give at least eighty or more other samples from manufacturing regulations (and cataloques as well),
but what the heck!

Why spending more time to this subject. I advise Redcoat to do research as I did for over 40 years
and one day he will find out himself the IWM was not correct!

I have seen many such mistakes in museums and when pointing it out, they do not even react!
Visiting the city-museum in Lüdenscheid, the Knopfmuseum, in which also lots of buckles were
shown, I saw a customs-buckle described as diplomat. Later I handed over the regulation with specific
drawing. They were not intending to make changes. How stupid one can be!!

Over and out!

**Landser I** · 02-09-2016, 08:01 PM

I thought he handled the plastic visors in real life, but all I can see in this thread are some useless informations from a museum. I'm quite interested in visors, and so I hoped about some pictures from the plastic island to learn something new about my hobby.

Regards

**stonemint** · 02-09-2016, 08:10 PM

Redcoat, in your first post you stated:

"Now to the point of this thread. Over the years my friends and I had accumulated quite an arsenal of relics including uniforms and caps of all descriptions including several Waffen SS walking out visors and can quite clearly state that contrary to the dogma held to by many `experts' regarding the visor's on these caps, many that I owned and or handled were 100% made of plastic – yes plastic and yet very little credit is ever given to this fact which I find odd given the fact that the Germans were extremely short of rubber throughout the war and many materials derived from plastic were indeed incorporated into the manufacture of caps, Rayon and synthetic sweat bands being just two."

The question everybody is asking is where are the examples from your "island find" that you have owned and/or handled that were "100% made of plastic?"
Inquiring minds await....

**ErWeSa** · 02-09-2016, 08:17 PM

I'll stick to douglas2496 and remain polite (which I was taught by F.-B. is an essential characteristic of the participants of this site). So: thanks for the reply. I checked out on Catalogue number UNI 11250 (and the other peaked caps displayed) of the IWM. Said catalogue number has 2 descriptions, a listing of materials used where it says: peak: leather (!!!) and, underneath that, without any specification what this shall have been used for: plastic (so, obviousely not the peak!)

Then, there is the text: "Physical description" to the right of the listing of the materials used, and there it says: Black fine wool cap with black velvet cap band, black plastic peak, ...

So two different descriptions for one and the same cap - once with leather peak (which it isn't, what is obvoius) and once with plastic peak (which it isn't either, what is obvious again). What does tell us that about the quality of this description?

The other point is, this is the only entry I found where a "plastic peak" is mentioned in the "physical description", whereas plastic is mentioned more often in the "materials used" rubric, without specification what this ominous plastic was used for in the cap, or, which kind of "plastic" they talk of.

The third point is, that we have still not seen pictures of the TR caps with plastic peaks - i. e. close ups of these peaks. Personally, I tend to not believe what I can't see/touch etc., so please post pictures of what you believe to be plastic peaks on your island finds.