Bill Shea's item C-445

**youthcollector1** · 11-15-2013, 11:20 PM

Hello all,
Quick question as I've found myself somewhat confused. Bill S. currently has a collar tab offered on his site which he claims to be of the SS. More pacifically, it's supposedly of the SS-Pioniersturmbann-3. However, from my recollection this tab would be of the SA-Pioniersturmbann-3, not the SS.
Here is Bills description of the tab in question;
"This is produced in black badge cloth that is in good condition with minor discoloration and wear. There are two metal ciphers, one depicting a crossed shovel and pick axe and another of the number 3. The reverse features a buckram stiffener. Great condition and scarcely-seen!"
If time permits, I'd like to hear some opinions, SA or SS?
Thanks all,
C.

Link to tab;
C-445* Enlisted Ranks Collar Tab for SS-Pionmiersturmbann 3

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 11-15-2013 11:20 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**Wagriff** · 11-16-2013, 01:10 AM

Take a look through this earlier thread-particularly at post number 11. The tab that Shea has is of a lower rank with none of the bullion embroidery and has no piping, but it does look similar in arrangement to the number 4 tabs in the collection photo in photo 4. There was an enormous variety of different constructions materials and such for insignias like these. In some, for example, the shovel and picks have knobs on the ends of their handles and others do not. I really do not see a problem with this being an SS tab.

Ss-pioniersturmbann

**youthcollector1** · 11-16-2013, 01:51 AM

Indeed, but note that although similar, all of the examples shown in the link are either bullion or thread, not a attached metal, especially the number. Such is actually why I thought the above example was SA, and not SS, but I could be wrong. I would be curious to hear from Mr. Coleman or even the owner of the items in post 11 from the link you provided. Any other thoughts, and thanks Wagriff.

**Wagriff** · 11-16-2013, 01:55 AM

Personally, I just would assume it's a matter of being of lower rank and perhaps the era of the war that it was produced in. But for that kind of price, I wouldn't want it Anyway! I'd wait and hunt down a nice bullion embroidered one simply because they look better.

**youthcollector1** · 11-16-2013, 02:06 AM

by Wagriff

Personally, I just would assume it's a matter of being of lower rank and perhaps the era of the war that it was produced in. But for that kind of price, I wouldn't want it Anyway! I'd wait and hunt down a nice bullion embroidered one simply because they look better.

Agreed, possible something such as this? This is actually what I'd expect to see when referring to a low ranking ss pioneer tab.

To be fair though, the tab in question would be found on a Brownshirt I believe, therefore maybe it could be used for either the SS or SA? That is just speculation on my part, and I'm more inclined to believe it was for only the SA, and has no connection to the SS.
**I hope this goes unsaid, but this thread wasn't created to suggest Bill is trying to pull a fast one. I have the upmost respect for the man, and find him to be one of the best, if not the best dealers around. If the tab has no connection to the SS, I'm sure Bill had no idea. Just though I'd point that out so nobody misinterprets anything being said.

**big ned** · 11-16-2013, 02:49 AM

Bill Shea is an honest dealer for sure, and i'm certain a very nice gentlemen, but even he makes mistakes. Whilst viewing the link supplied by youthcollector1 I moved onto the Army/SS medals & badges section and found this Panzerkampf Abzeichen in silver and award packet named to the maker Orth. Unfortunately both are horrible fakes and completely worthless.

M-295a* Panzer Assault Badge in Silver

Which just goes to show that even the best of the dealers make mistakes sometimes. Absit Invidia.

Regards, Ned.

**cricketchris1944** · 11-16-2013, 03:01 AM

Too often collectors be live that dealers know every items in the militaria world.
Not true ,just like us we focus in one or two area.
That is how collectors buy bad items from dealers.
always do your homework before buying.
chris

**Gwar** · 11-16-2013, 04:21 AM

I have done business with Bill Shea... Even this week... I have never been dis-apponted with my purchases..
I agree that as collectors we should do our "Homework" Here... But nontheless, I am guilty of buying on inpulse rather than facts sometimes... I feel that some items must be bought or else they may slip away never to be found again as far as what we collect... I bought a Felgemerie Gorget off ebay for $200.00 authentic and great and traded it for (3) Rad buckles and a Heer...Buyer beware... I have even posted many items this night that may or not be "Fake" ... I go with my gut sometimes...Thanks guys....Gwar

**relicz** · 11-16-2013, 04:49 AM

Each item must stand on it own merit, no matter who the seller is. Another thing to consider is that no item is bad, no matter who the seller is, until it is discovered to be so.

' Nuff Said....... caveat emptor!

**BOB COLEMAN** · 11-16-2013, 05:08 AM

The tab is certainly period original. I have never seen metal unit numbers used either on SA or SS collar tabs. Metal numbers are usually found on NSKK and some NSFK tabs. As previously stated, it is likely a wartime variation. I can not comment with certainty any further.
Ned-
Send Bill a PM about the reproduction metal. He will appreciate your input and remove it from his site. I have found Bill to be a dealer who stands behind what he sells.