A couple of totenkopfs probably fakes or?

[Anders S]

They could be marked with only numbers too. As an example, like this Zimmermann skull I had a while back. 499/41

Skulls could be marked in other ways too. (And unmarked.)

[bwanek1]

Is original totenkops always marked with "M1" first or can it be only numbers? For exampel "99/999"?
/Mike

The RZM complete marking code reflects the material, type of item, and the manufacturer. For metal cap insignia, the code begins with "M" indicating the material (metal), “1” indicates the type of item (insignia), and, following the slash, a one or two-digit number, which was assigned by the RZM, identified the manufacturer.

The SS also contracted directly with manufacturers for the production of insignia, independent of the RZM contracts. The SS assigned their own three-digit numbers to manufacturers, which were entirely unrelated to the codes these companies had already been assigned by the RZM. The SS required that insignia produced under their contracts be marked with their own manufacturer number followed by a slash (or dash) and the two-digit year. As the insignia produced directly for the SS were made by RZM-contracted manufacturers, they still retained the RZM symbol.

As a result, we now find insignia having been produced by the same manufacturer but with different markings, dependant upon whether that particular lot had been produced under contract with the RZM or with the SS directly. For Deschler, the RZM manufacturer code was 52 and the SS contract number was 254, so, we find Deschler skulls marked with either 52, produced for the RZM, or 254, produced directly for the SS. In one case, an eagle produced by Zimmermann, both marking codes were used on the same piece of insignia (SS marking “499/42” and RZM marking “M1/72”), indicating the likelihood that that portions of that production run were delivered separately to both the RZM and to the SS to satisfy two different contract requirements simultaneously.

Early skulls which pre-dated the formal establishment of these conventions, bear other markings. However, for reasons we may never know, some insignia continued to be produced throughout the war without ever adopting either the RZM or SS marking convention. Examples are Assmann skulls marked with "Ges. Gesch." or, as Anders pointed out, not marked at all.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Verwaltungsamt SS contract numbers on various pieces of insignia, uniform, equipment et cetera also had single or two digits, as well. Later examples had four digits. I assume these contracts began in 1934 with the separation of the SS from the SA in the wake of the Roehm Putsch.

In order to understand this system or systems, read the relevant titles on the finances and economic enterprises of the SS, which set this little detail in context.

Portions of the SS secured their budget from various sources in party and state, which might have had an impact on procurement and hence the markings of items, but this is a hunch.

The system with M1, M2 as well as A1 and A2 et cetera was introduced in early 1935. Previously there was an abbreviated code, i.e. Uniformeffekten, UE.

The still reigning book on same is the work of Clyde Davis of the mid 1970s, which, I suppose, is now impossible to find. This work laid out all of this in great clarity.

Let us keep this site a useful and productive one with such posts as these and those of my colleagues.

[Anders S]

My friend Tony S (tonys on this forum) has compiled a partial list of RZM manufacturer codes and their locations on his site; "SS RELICS".

There is also a list of what I and he believe are the correct markings of metal visor insignia. (Of course fakes are made with these markings aswell.)

Have a look at my friends site, he has a lot of nice items and a lot of useful information.

SS RELICS - WAFFEN-SS TUNICS, SS HEADGEAR, SS POSTERS, SS UNIFORMS, SS INSIGNIA, SS ALLACH PORCELAIN

[bwanek1]

...he has a lot of nice items and a lot of useful information.

...and he is a genuinely nice guy who is willing to share his knowledge and experience with his fellow collectors.

[Badto666]

Thanks you so much for your kindness to give me so good answers I here post a picture of a "RZM 499/41 - Fritz Zimmermann" totenkopf that probably is a fake but what should I look for on it to know it´s a fake?
Thank you.
/Mike

[carlsson1982]

It's fake .

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Here is a real one, for what little it is worth.... I won't go on about all the Werkstoffe and "prongs" that send the rest of you into rhapsody. The piece above dismissed with so few words by one of you is cast, not stamped, which is a major tell tale feature for the novice.

[Badto666]

Thank you very much all of you for your help.I think I give up to find anyone in the 2nd form , It´s a f-cking jungle What about this totenkopf 1st form?

[carlsson1982]

it's a common original.