unknown original SS skull

[carlsson1982]

a possible other Deschler die I don't know, like you can see on this early RZM52 skull (mine) the configuration was always the same, except for the "D & S. M Ges.Gesch-die", it had another configuration so..I don't know

[carlsson1982]

the other different die from Deschler (not mine)
wider nose, other theeth-configuration...

[Friedrich-Berthold]

I think you should take your question to other sites, where there are people interested and informed about your query.

The questions posed here have been asked by others for years on other sites, without to my mind any meaningful answer.

If you live in Europe, then go to Muenchen Feldkirchen and ask the Deschler people and tell us what you find.

I, in fact, own all these early Deschler variations on caps, plainly, and for the life of me I can scarcely see the differences.

I actually do not think these "differences" mean anything in historical terms or really matter in the greater scheme of things.

Rather, dealers and others create artificial distinctions to increase the value of objects that are otherwise already valuable.

I have watched this phenomenon with daggers and with caps.

Lubstein caps are quite common, but somehow made to be something exclusive (which they were not in the III. Reich) whereas the cap makers that were exclusive draw little or no collector interest....so go figure.

Hritz and Bwanek have not responded to these threads, so I think your interests are better served on the lord of the flies site or wherever.

To be sure, there is much about this regalia that we do not know, and which the on line experts surely do not know, but those who pose questions have an obligation to offer evidence that is meaningful and historically solid. The self proclaimed "scull" experts especially on other sites (some of whom do not even apparently have a secondary school or community college education) derive outlandish conclusions from maybe fifteen or perhaps twenty extant pieces as if they were there in 1935 to make them, themselves.

I have downloaded dozens and dozens and surely maybe even a couple of hundred "scull" pictures like the rest of us, but I am not at all sure what these images really have to say, in fact.

They raise more questions than answers.

For instance, who was "SP 40" and why does this mark vary from the others in so radical a way?

Why is a piece unmarked at all?

If you follow the received wisdom on the other sites, you see a lot of it crumble as new evidence comes to light, but my point is go find some documentary evidence as in the Wm Saris book.

Happy "sculls".....

[BenVK]

Thought provoking as always FB.

I must say that my interest regarding these bits of alloy used to be extreme when I was on the bottom rung of the learning ladder. Every little detail of each and every known maker was a source of endless hours of fascination, downloading photos like yourself to compare and study them. Not to mention the countless posts on the subject discussing them with the "gurus" of the subject.
Nowadays, they leave me a little cold unless they are in the context of discussing the cap that they are attached to. That is what they were designed for after all. They have very little historical meaning on their own.
It kind of saddens me that most of these items are being snapped up by collectors these days just to be placed on little plastic plinths in display cabinets. It's all very well showing off an SS cap insignia collection and observing that this one is a rare aluminium Deschler and this one is a not so rare zinc Overhoff etc etc but that is missing the point IMO.
Personally, I only buy these things when they become available and are reasonable in price because I know that one day, another cap will come my way stripped of its badges as they so often are. Perhaps that's been the problem all along in the collectors world? So many little fingers over the years have not been able to resist the temptation of removing these things to have a closer look, see what's on the back, stick on their baseball hats or whatever.
Had the Third Reich chosen different emblems other than skulls and eagles, perhaps the fascination wouldn't be as strong. The insignia of Imperial caps for instance are just plain boring compared and are usually still in place and undisturbed on the caps of this era in my experience.
One of the questions I would dearly love to investigate if I had time machine would be the relationship between the manufactures of the insignia and the cap makers themselves. For instance, did Deschler have an obligation to provide to only a selective number of miliners regulated by the authorities? or was it a free market or prehaps more of a "club for the boys" where supply deals were done over a couple of bottles of good wine and a fine dinner?
Those are the things that interest me far more these days. Sad but true! If only I could speak and read the German language perhaps I would be able to make a start.
Oh well, I still have plenty of time in my life, fingers crossed.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Thought provoking as always FB.

I must say that my interest regarding these bits of alloy used to be extreme when I was on the bottom rung of the learning ladder. Every little detail of each and every known maker was a source of endless hours of fascination, downloading photos like yourself to compare and study them. Not to mention the countless posts on the subject discussing them with the "gurus" of the subject.
Nowadays, they leave me a little cold unless they are in the context of discussing the cap that they are attached to. That is what they were designed for after all. They have very little historical meaning on their own.
It kind of saddens me that most of these items are being snapped up by collectors these days just to be placed on little plastic plinths in display cabinets. It's all very well showing off an SS cap insignia collection and observing that this one is a rare aluminium Deschler and this one is a not so rare zinc Overhoff etc etc but that is missing the point IMO.
Personally, I only buy these things when they become available and are reasonable in price because I know that one day, another cap will come my way stripped of its badges as they so often are. Perhaps that's been the problem all along in the collectors world? So many little fingers over the years have not been able to resist the temptation of removing these things to have a closer look, see what's on the back, stick on their baseball hats or whatever.
Had the Third Reich chosen different emblems other than skulls and eagles, perhaps the fascination wouldn't be as strong. The insignia of Imperial caps for instance are just plain boring compared and are usually still in place and undisturbed on the caps of this era in my experience.
One of the questions I would dearly love to investigate if I had time machine would be the relationship between the manufactures of the insignia and the cap makers themselves. For instance, did Deschler have an obligation to provide to only a selective number of miliners regulated by the authorities? or was it a free market or prehaps more of a "club for the boys" where supply deals were done over a couple of bottles of good wine and a fine dinner?
Those are the things that interest me far more these days. Sad but true! If only I could speak and read the German language perhaps I would be able to make a start.
Oh well, I still have plenty of time in my life, fingers crossed.

Thanks, dear friend, for a fine riposte and an equally informative and thoughtful essay. You should ask Peter Jenkins, as well as some of the Hamburg dealers, who have pursued some of these leads, but they do not much share their insights in these spaces. I, too, collect caps and see these badges as part of a whole. The whole is more than the sum of the parts, and the made up "rarity" of parts leaves me quite cold.

But to each his own, surely. Such is my taste and it does not accord with those of others. So be it.

Truth be told, I am off to central Europe and will not be present here for a fortnight. I wish happy "sculls" to all people devoted to Neusilber, Kupal and Feinzink. May your M1/52 marks prosper and proliferate...!

And don't touch the things with a bare finger, or they will corrode even more.

Tschuessi!

[Jan]

It will not be long until we get nationally funded archaeological excavations going on, at ww 2 sites. This will help clear things out im sure. Although the finds wont be for sale, the nformation gathered will serve a purpose here, as in many other forums of recent or ancient history.

Cheers Jan

[carlsson1982]

I have already asked some question a while ago to them (and I speak 4 languages, also German)
This is their site:
Onlineshop Pokale Pichl Pokale Online Shop Medaillen Abzeichen Plaketten Schilder Münz Prägung

but they didn't want to discuss those "Nazi" object no more.
So It's going to be even more harder for you to believe..
But I already made my point, this thread is going nowhere like this.

Thanks for the input tough.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

I have already asked some question a while ago to them (and I speak 4 languages, also German)
This is their site:
Onlineshop Pokale Pichl Pokale Online Shop Medaillen Abzeichen Plaketten Schilder Münz Prägung

but they didn't want to discuss those "Nazi" object no more.
So It's going to be even more harder for you to believe..
But I already made my point, this thread is going nowhere like this.

Thanks for the input tough.

You have to establish a basis of trust with these people, since, if you go there cold and pose a question about the III Reich, you surely will get no answer. The Hugo Boss firm got very bad publicity because of their RZM and putative SS connection. Hence, you can only get at this through the indirect approach. And, Hritz and Bwanek have a large collection of these badges, they care about what you want, and know more than I or others do. But my point is to get at some higher level of knowledge, which never happens on these sites, or by accident.

But I am utterly sure that someone at Deschler knows someone who worked there earlier or knows someone who knows an applied museum of arts and crafts who would know alot.

The other route is the army museum in Ingolstadt as well as in Vienna. These places would surely have entree to the right kind of knowledge. The museum in Dresden is also a possibility.

Hiermit melde ich mich ab!

[BenVK]

Perhaps the way to go would be to approach Deschler in the manor of being interested in their current production and also their history without focusing the questions on the TR period at all. Once they know you are interested in them rather than the "Nazis" they might be more trusting.

[carlsson1982]

It would be very intresting indeed, If they're will be more news from my side I sure let everybody know.











In der Zukunft vileicht, wenn Ich mehr Zeit habe