Need help iding my circa 1938 Nazi Ansbach/4 Parade Flag

**w4uvv** · 01-09-2015, 09:34 PM

I am not familiar with the identification attributes on Nazi Party Parade flags because of their scarcity and lack of website information. My Nazi Party Parade flag approximately 45 in. x 47 in. appears to have participated in many parades and rallies as can be confirmed by the slightly stressed shape on the bottom staff support. That shape is consistent with "fighting gravity" when carrying the top heavy flag with metal top piece probably on many occasions..especially when being located relatively close to Nuremberg.

I have a few questions. First, I assume the brown cloth field in the flag's upper left corner represents possibly the SA political level "Kreis". Is that correct? If not what would the brown color field represent? Secondly, as mentioned Ansbach is located about 30 miles southwest of Nuremberg and during WW2 was the site of a small concentration camp and a significant Luftwaffe upper echelon staff. "Ansbach" obviously is the town name embroidered in light blue or grey script but what does the "4" represent? Is "4" one of four or more SA geopolitical or geographical subdivisions of Ansbach or of a Gruppe level or what? I have searched the internet for detailed reference information with no results. This forum, so far, seems to offer the best source for accurate information on the subject. What would be more good sources to aid in identifying these types of SA flag attributions?

Although I have lists of RZM manufacturers of other Nazi items, for some reason I do not have one for these flag and banner manufacturers. Can someone provide a website link to download and print such a list?

Any id help or website links regarding identification of this subject flag are appreciated.

John

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 01-09-2015 09:34 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**harryamb2** · 01-09-2015, 09:40 PM

a great set,need more pics please of the whole item.

**w4uvv** · 01-09-2015, 10:50 PM

Per your request here are a few more pictures...From the top of the eagle to the bottom of the flag's staff's butt piece is approximately 10 ft. 6 in. The total configuration is top heavy. Notice the slight curve in the bottom staff support. Also attached are pictures of two RZM stamps one of which is near the base of the eagle topping piece but is difficult to id because the font size is quite small. (M3/10 or 40?/38) The other RZM stamp is on the butt plate. Again, it is difficult to read due to the small font size.(M5/27?) If I can get a list of manufacturer's codes I am sure I can confirm who made the staff items. There is another manufacturer's stamp on a flag support ring "D. R. G. V." which I believe is equivalent to "patent applied for" and his manufacturer's code "M5/5".

This party parade flag and known history so far is the most valuable one of my WW2 Nazi flags. Thankfully the veteran who took it 70+ years ago took the complete configuration and not just cut the flag straps from the rings.

John

**slados28** · 01-09-2015, 10:55 PM

Man... I'm no expert but that looks like an awesome set!! Do you have the vet history as well? Don't see many Kreis flags around... seems it's mostly Ortsgruppe all over. Thanks for showing!

**w4uvv** · 01-10-2015, 02:49 PM

by slados28

Man... I'm no expert but that looks like an awesome set!! Do you have the vet history as well? Don't see many Kreis flags around... seems it's mostly Ortsgruppe all over. Thanks for showing!

This was an indirect private purchase from an area high end collector who wished to remain private and is disposing of a few flags in his WW2 Nazi collection. Because previously I had bought some more common Nazi flags I was given the first opportunity to purchase this excellent parade staff/flag configuration which I immediately did. I don't know the vet history although I have asked but doubt any will be provided.

I do not know for a fact this is a Kreis level parade flag. I have a SA political Kreis level armband with the same brown base color with light blue piping which made me think this flag also might be a SA Kreis level item. I need a knowledgeable flag collector to id this flag as to SA level and what the "4" represents.

John

**slados28** · 01-10-2015, 04:23 PM

Thanks for the info! Like I said, I'm no expert but I was under the impression that SA flags had corner patches in black and that the ones with brown patches signified NSDAP --- like yours. I only have an Ortsgruppe NSDAP flag and limited knowledge beyond that so.... hope someone else will chime in.
I'm also pretty sure there's a good amount of reference photos of SA flags in this section which should help you out figuring this out.

The stamping also says D.R.G.M (Deutsches Reichsgebrauchsmuster) --- not D.R.G.V. Just a minor correction, it seems you had the correct general idea of its meaning either way.

M5/27 is for Rittinghaus & Co., Lüdenscheid according to what I could find. M5/5 is for Elsas & Bocks, Wuppertal-Barmen according to the same source. No idea about the illegible rzm marking...

**BOB COLEMAN** · 01-10-2015, 05:20 PM

The trim around the corner patch appears to be light blue. It represents NSDAP Ortsgruppe 4 from Ansbach. A Kreis is one of a kind and would not have a number. NSDAP and the SA are completely different organizations. SA sturmfahne would have a corner patch with the base color of their Gruppe, which would match the color top of their kepis and the base color of their collar insignia. Although two SA Gruppe had black as their color, individuals often confuse black colored corner patches from NSBO flags with SA sturmfahne.

**slados28** · 01-10-2015, 05:34 PM

Great info --- thanks Bob! I was unsure about the color too but without having that info on Kreis I opted for it anyway thinking it was a "silverish" white... but now I know --- I also didn't know that they had corner patches colored according to insignia and cap piping color (the Gruppe's individual color) . Another lesson learned!

**w4uvv** · 01-10-2015, 10:10 PM

by w4uvv

This was an indirect private purchase from an area high end collector who wished to remain private and is disposing of a few flags in his WW2 Nazi collection. Because previously I had bought some more common Nazi flags I was given the first opportunity to purchase this excellent parade staff/flag configuration which I immediately did. I don't know the vet history although I have asked but doubt any will be provided.

I do not know for a fact this is a Kreis level parade flag. I have a SA political Kreis level armband with the same brown base color with light blue piping which made me think this flag also might be a SA Kreis level item. I need a knowledgeable flag collector to id this flag as to SA level and what the "4" represents.

John

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......more

If I had taken the time to view my framed Ortsgruppe armband with correct id I would not have made the erroneous memory leap of logic that the armband was a Kreis level. I apologize for my error.

Today was a good day for my flag id. Thanks to a few very knowledgeable flag collectors it has been correctly identified as an Ortsgruppe level NSDAP parade party flag....by 1938 the SA was pretty much relegated to a reduced but controllable role. Ansbach is one of 4 or more Ortsgruppe districts. I don't know whether Ortgruppe district maps exist. If so I would be curious see the other related district locations.

I still am not sure about the embroidered colors. Viewed closely in direct sunlight, to me "Ansbach" and "4" appear to be a very, very light blue or possibly a light grey color. The outside brown field border is approximately 1/4 in. width and appears to be made of a silver metallic thread.

Today I also made a display stand for the upper half of the flag for more appropriate viewing.

Again, thanks to all who provided RZM manufacture ids and other flag related comments. It also was another learning experience for me and I really appreciate everyone's time and helpful comments.

John

**slados28** · 01-10-2015, 10:20 PM

Good to hear! And if you take the time to read Bob Coleman's post you'll realize there's no doubt about the color, simply because Kreis (white piping) would not have had had any numbers on the corner patch as they were each one of a kind. So that leave us with light blue in possibly some kind of metallic thread, there were none with "silver" as such, for Ortsgruppe, as already identified here and obviously by you on another forum or the like.

Nicely displayed btw! Love the meatball flags!