M42 SD CKL 5345 / Champagne

**relicz** · 02-14-2016, 02:32 PM

If there are at least 8 - 10 legitimate decals in existence, it would stand to reason that they are still out there in the collecting community. That being said, how difficult would it be to locate these and submit them to scientific examination and evaluate their authenticity? And furthermore, why hasn't someone attempted it already?

Just saying......

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 02-14-2016 02:32 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**Kelly H** · 02-14-2016, 02:39 PM

by slados28

As always a confusing debate to follow --- could you please post the 8-10 decals you consider genuine based on in depth examination and reasoning based on what we already know about period decal construction? "Vet purchased" is fine and all for the one picking it up first hand but it's another thing entirely for the ones picking it up second hand with nothing but that tired old line backing it up.

I also have to say that I personally feel the recent revelations are the result of exactly what you propose; " professional attitude, independent thinking, hard work, reading and research"... to me this will always be infinitely better than solely trusting a second hand story from a seller.
The thread I read on the topic did not "attack" any one individual in any way, as far as I could tell...its author actually went out of his way to avoid doing so --- it merely exposed and debunked a lot of helmets with decals that people previously thought were authentic.

I see no other victims here than the ones that have paid through the nose for helmets bearing fake SS decals.

Slados,
You make some great points, some of which I did not consider (the personal attack part). That is good to hear actually, thank you. The part about asking me to post all of the helmets I consider to be real-- please can consult my books and my website to see what I saw as real and make your judgements from there. That is the good part about all this--we are free to have our opinions. Regards, K

**Kelly H** · 02-14-2016, 02:48 PM

by relicz

If there are at least 8 - 10 legitimate decals in existence, it would stand to reason that they are still out there in the collecting community. That being said, how difficult would it be to locate these and submit them to scientific examination and evaluate their authenticity? And furthermore, why hasn't someone attempted it already?

Just saying......

Fair point relicz, I've discussed it a lot with friends. The 8-10 include helmets I saw in advanced collections 30+ years ago. Just to be frank here, I had scientific analysis conducted on all types of decals with XRF technology, which became a forum punching bag. The ridicule of xrf killed it and rendered it unmentionable--especially the whacko conspiracies on the gun boards. Who is going to go back down that road in their right mind? I can say this: the fakers were shaking in their shoes because of XRF, even the allach fakers. For a brief moment, I saw an opportunity to do a lot of good with it. Regards, K

**FALLSCHIRMJAGER** · 02-14-2016, 04:06 PM

As the owner of only one SS helmet (and that being ET) I am probably not the best informed to "chip in" on the subject of the champagne rune. I have handled and seen many good SS helmets in the past though and studied Doug's in depth responses on this forum. As a militaria collector in general, I personally have always shied away from the champagne rune, simply because of this kind of debate. Some like them and some don't (myself included), so for me, that's enough not to take the risk on buying one, but I respect others opinions for sure, especially yours Mr Hicks, you've clearly demonstrated your vast knowledge on the subject over many years. Leon.

**BOB COLEMAN** · 02-14-2016, 04:44 PM

Do those who doubt the originality of the champagne decal think the helmet I obtained in 1961 was a fake?

**Kelly H** · 02-14-2016, 05:02 PM

Well put, cheers Leon

**cricketchris1944** · 02-14-2016, 05:26 PM

by BOB COLEMAN

Do those who doubt the originality of the champagne decal think the helmet I obtained in 1961 was a fake?

Where the pictures?

**BOB COLEMAN** · 02-14-2016, 05:29 PM

by cricketchris1944

Where the pictures?

Who the hell took pictures back in the early 1960's? Sorry but that is really a dumb question. Were you collecting back then or even around?

**cricketchris1944** · 02-14-2016, 05:35 PM

[QUOTE=BOB COLEMAN;1580676]Who the hell took pictures back in the early 1960's? Sorry but that is really a dumb question. Were you collecting back then or even around?[/QU

I thought you may still have the helmet to show us. No reason to get this nasty.

**Schwerpunkt** · 02-14-2016, 05:39 PM

by BOB COLEMAN

Do those who doubt the originality of the champagne decal think the helmet I obtained in 1961 was a fake?

Hello Bob , if it was a champagne rune , no probably not. But as there is like 55 years almost inbetween your statement and today maybe it was just a regular ET decal. It took quite a while before decals were categorized , even in the Goodapple book end of the seventies it was just called first and second pattern runic shields.

So basically if we want to continue this discussion beyond Doug's findings we need to have new evidence being brought to the table and that is other helmets than the ones outed as being painted.