M42 SD CKL 5345 / Champagne

**Joda** · 02-14-2016, 05:46 PM

Hallo guys,
only for my curiosity: is anyone supporting the theory of the originality of ch decals able to show a serious and scientific analisys that discredit the work of mr. Buhler? Analisys that as you know shows point by point that ch decals are actually painted and not decals?
please note that I dont mind to argue with anybody, it only for my curiosity

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 02-14-2016 05:46 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**relicz** · 02-14-2016, 06:13 PM

by Schwerpunkt

Hello Bob , if it was a champagne rune , no probably not. But as there is like 55 years almost inbetween your statement and today maybe it was just a regular ET decal. It took quite a while before decals were categorized , even in the Goodapple book end of the seventies it was just called first and second pattern runic shields.

So basically if we want to continue this discussion beyond Doug's findings we need to have new evidence being brought to the table and that is other helmets than the ones outed as being painted.

Agree, that it may have been legitimate decal with similar toning. FWIW - I came across a early SS DD NS M35 a few years ago. The decal definitely had some oxidation, but not knowing SS decals all that well at the time, I was unsure what I was looking at, or the particular variety it was for that matter. I may contact the owner and see if it is still in his possession.

**BOB COLEMAN** · 02-14-2016, 06:21 PM

I believe the fake theory is based upon one helmet only. I also understand that there was no professional scientific study of what was removed In any case, this was an opinion of one helmet which can not be considered a scientific conclusion on all. It could have been a fake or maybe not. I have no horse in this discussion except t offer my experience from the days when there was a plethora of genuine material and few fakes of anything. It was not an era when an object required 20 close up photos in natural sun light. All of this has come in to being due to internet study and the great increase in fakes. I have bought several champagne decal SS helmets directly from the men who brought them home. This is my last statement on this subject as either I am a living witness to the early days of collecting or I am an outright liar. You can come to your own conclusions.

**Joda** · 02-14-2016, 07:23 PM

by BOB COLEMAN

I believe the fake theory is based upon one helmet only. I also understand that there was no professional scientific study of what was removed In any case, this was an opinion of one helmet which can not be considered a scientific conclusion on all. It could have been a fake or maybe not. I have no horse in this discussion except t offer my experience from the days when there was a plethora of genuine material and few fakes of anything. It was not an era when an object required 20 close up photos in natural sun light. All of this has come in to being due to internet study and the great increase in fakes. I have bought several champagne decal SS helmets directly from the men who brought them home. This is my last statement on this subject as either I am a living witness to the early days of collecting or I am an outright liar. You can come to your own conclusions.

Many colelctors here know without doubt the work made by Doug Buhler about these decals. His analisys was made over several helmets, not only one, with a serious work and study about them. Finally he stated that CH decals are actually painted and not real decals.
HE states this, NOT me..
In addiction, it is proved that there are many FAKE CH decals in the market, made after the first appearances of real CH "decals".

So, here are my questions:
1. is there anybody able to discredit the theory of painting?
2. Is there also anyone able to demostrate that painted shields were wartime made?
3. Is there anybody able to demonstrate that actually CH decals are REAL decals and not painted?

Best!

**cricketchris1944** · 02-14-2016, 07:29 PM

I really did not expect a reply like this from you Bob or from any moderator from this forum.
I have enjoy this forum ,but I guess it is time for me to move on.

chris

**Wagriff** · 02-14-2016, 07:29 PM

The stated fact that Bob has purchased them Directly from the GI's that brought them home is, in my opinion, proof enough that there are, at the very least, Some genuine champagnes in existence.

**relicz** · 02-14-2016, 07:51 PM

The analysis thread is pinned on WAF as well as GHW, not so here. If you care to read it, I suggest going there and doing so. No one's reputation was intentionally besmirched and no individuals accused of wrong doing, just a straight up analysis of multiple helmets and decals.

Error - German Helmet Walhalla

wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=834155

**Joda** · 02-14-2016, 08:09 PM

by relicz

The analysis thread is pinned on WAF as well as GHW, not so here. If you care to read it, I suggest going there and doing so. No one's reputation was intentionally besmirched and no individuals accused of wrong doing, just a straight up analysis of multiple helmets and decals.

Error - German Helmet Walhalla

wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=834155

I know both.

Ok guys, I think everyone as always will keep his own opinions.
Its a pity.

Best!

**Joda** · 02-14-2016, 08:12 PM

by Wagriff

The stated fact that Bob has purchased them Directly from the GI's that brought them home is, in my opinion, proof enough that there are, at the very least, Some genuine champagnes in existence.

Is Bob's helmet ever been shown in books or threads on forums? I would be happy to see it!

**BOB COLEMAN** · 02-14-2016, 08:40 PM

by Joda

Is Bob's helmet ever been shown in books or threads on forums? I would be happy to see it!

I wish I could help but it is long gone over 40 years ago and if I had pictures of it they would not be up to the close up standards required by todays requirements. A different time with a far different approach to collecting.