Großkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes. Real or Fake?

[GaryM]

Hello, I just thought you may find these Interesting.

[GaryM]

Sorry I should have said these are the original Großkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes

[big ned]

Sorry I should have said these are the original Großkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes

The bestowal date in the case is 12th January 1943, are you absolutely sure of this? Goring was awarded the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross in April 1940, so therefore I call foul.

Regards, Ned.

[Saladin]

Sorry I should have said these are the original Großkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes

Hello Gary,
the two cased crosses that you show are not what in my opinion would be considered to be originals.
In my effort to study I believe that there are only two types of cross that are considered to be of a pre 1945 date.
The two crosses were made respectively by Godet and Juncker. The Godet cross was in all probability produced by Zimmermann.

Both types of cross would have only ever been marked 800 below the jump ring. I note on the pictures you show there is an additional marking to the rear of the cross and it is offset to the right. I believe the crosses that you show are the two that were made with platinum frames and onyx centres put inside an engraved cigar box and offered as original GCs?

The box appears to be a 50th birthday celebration present from AH to Goering in 1943 which ties in but as Ned says he was awarded his GC in 1940 so why a double gift? I would imagine that Goering already had a box full of these crosses anyway.
He even had two made from Onyx and white gold for wear. Bear in mind that Platinum was not considered to be a precious metal so gold would have been the obvious choice.

The only other GC that collectors believe to be original is the one mad post war by Souval.

There were additional examples made by Juncker that carry the L/12 stamp but it is my belief that these were manufactured for collectors and retail before they were all recalled in 1941.

The cross that started the thread looked at first glance to be one made by Souval but as pointed out by other esteemed members the quality is quite poor so I would imagine it is a more modern 'knock up'

Goerings original crosses are being held by the Bundesrepublik

Cheers
Doug

[GaryM]

I only put the images up, because I thought you are collectors and might find them interesting. There is no question of authenticity as the were purchased from Emmy Göring in 1948.

[Saladin]

I only put the images up, because I thought you are collectors and might find them interesting. There is no question of authenticity as the were purchased from Emmy Göring in 1948.

No way are these original in my opinion Gary.
I think I know the whole story about these two particular crosses and the converted Goering cigar case. I guess it is all down to an individual to what story you want to believe.
When it comes down to parting with thousands of euros on a dealers story I'll keep my money in my pocket

Cheers
Doug

[GaryM]

You are Entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Translation of the Dedication and other detail.

To the Reich Marshal
of the Greater German Reich Hermann Göring for his Service to
Germany’s Greatness and for his 50th Birthday - 12 January 1943 -
Adolf Hitler’). At the base edge a struck ‘800’ silver hallmark with the
punch of the Berlin jeweller Wilm. 5 x 18.5 x 28.5 cm.
This special issue of the Grand Cross was produced by Göring’s
preferred jeweller, Prof. Herbert Zeitner, the onyx plates having been
acquired from the Moser family in Carlsbad and fashioned into the
onyx centres based on a design by R. Rothemund in the craft workshop
of Arthur Brendel in Berlin. The engraving was executed there by
Rupert Kohlrus.
PROVENANCE: Wolfgang Schulze von Mertschinsky Collection, acquired
in 1948 from Emmy Göring.

[Saladin]

I think you may have mis translated the original auction blurb, Your date of 1948 has changed from the original. In detail and forgive my translation the listing said:
Offered with a photocopy of a letter from the former owner Wolfgang Schulze of Mertschinsky from May 1969 in which he describes in detail how he through the mediation of the later Royal Thai Consul General Styler this "silver case with the two large crosses the EK1939 of platinum and onyx" early 1958 received from the widow of Hermann Goring, Frau Emmy Goering.

So the crosses didn't appear to come on to the market till 1969.

The original crosses that were made by Zeitner and confirmed several times by him before his death in 1988 were only ever made in white gold and onyx, these gold and onyx crosses are well known and Goering can be seen to be wearing them in several period photographs.

Buy the item not the story

[GaryM]

Well, i will have to bow to the proven expert in this and admit I have learned a lesson. I didn't do the translation, but thank you.

[Montag]

Goering wearing...