wow that is bad handling remains like that they have no clue what they are doing. they need training to know what to do.
but as you guys know this is happening all the time on the eastern front. people who are doing it as just doing it for money gain and god knows whats happened to some of the remains. do you think they will hand over SS dog tags with the body no as they are worth so much and its a good find for them.
makes u feel sick they way they mess with the bones
The reality of all this is that we collectors and historians are the only individuals interested in the proper treatment and respect to the remains of the fallen of over 70 years ago. This is even truer if the remains are SS. As long as collectors will pay money for relics from black diggers, the practice will continue. Those who pay for these things are just as much of the problem as those who defile the graves of the dead;.by ironcross13
BOB
LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.
Yeah i don't know how these people can do it they have no morals or care. if it was done for the fallen to be found and they did it proper and hand in dog tags and doing it out of the good of there hart to find fallen men, then that would be a good thing and if they got some items maybe keep them or sell them and cover their cost.
i've been to one German WW2 graveyard in Reconge in the Ardennes they have a sad feeling about them and sad to see young men dead 20, 22 18 even.
Shocking how people will stoop so low.
i know a lot say they sell them to cover cost but this is not true.
Seems like unless you boycott obvious battlefield relics, once they're sold off one time, any connection to black diggers is going to be lost from that point on. Who knows how much of the stuff in our collections have traveled the globe moving from one collection to another over the years. So, even if we refuse to buy from known gravediggers, the next item you get from WAF or maybe even here, or anywhere for that matter, could well have originated from one in the past. And, there's always another guy willing to buy it the first time. Probably will be a problem so long as sellable stuff can be dug up.
I wish a show like this could be made that pays respect to history and dignity of the fallen. I would absolutely love to go on a reputable dig. I don't collect field relics generally, but to unearth the history like that, where it has lain for decades, would be really exciting. Even finding remains could be exciting when you consider the idea of bringing someone home after so long being forgotten. You might even be able to reunite them with their families for proper burial (how cool would that be in such a show, to show a family getting back a loved one's remains). We might even hear the story from the family about this soldier, where he was from, what he did. People might get a chance to see these were human beings, with lives and families and dreams of their own, who fought but may not have done so in the spirit of the NSDAP. It might help dispel some of the stereotypical "Nazi bastards" version of history so many of us grew up with, to see that while yeah there was an immense amount of evil at work, there was still a human element we should all be able to relate to even if we condemn the actions of certain people of the period.
It's unlikely I'll ever have the chance to go on a dig, so a show could be as close as I might come. But short attention spans being what they are, a program is going to have pressure to wrap things up in a timely cost effective manner every week, to push for the entertainment factor, and that's a recipe for doing a bad job. In some ways, it seems the most responsible action is to leave these places alone.
The digging of artifacts and relics has been going on from day one. At what point does it stop being archaeology and become grave desecration? If they excavate the Cannae battlefield is it okey but not okey to dig up a Civil War site like Gettysburg? Perhaps the difference is that one site may still have traceable descendants and relatives and the other does not? With the science of DNA today, even this distinction can begin to fade.
I have always questioned many of the famed projects such as the opening of Egyptian or Aztec and Mayan tombs. These people were given sophisticated and serious burials by their people, and with just such future disturbances in mind, they quite often made arrangements to prevent this from happening, and yet here they are hundreds of years later with their moldering bones being proudly displayed to the public. Hardly what they wanted-is it right? Who can say? But, who wouldn't love to see what is inside the 1st Emperor of China's tomb? It has always been in plain sight but has Not been violated. Is this a good thing? The dividing line between disturbing a gravesite and excavating an archaeological site can often get blurred. However, a Battlefield site is, in my eyes, abit different. These men did Not get buried there by family and did Not intend or Want to spend eternity lying in the hated mud of where they died. To recover them and return them home, I can see nothing wrong with this. Hopefully, such recovery can be done with some semblance of dignity and respect. If it is to be turned into a clownish event by such phony and greedy self-promoting buffoons as "Him", then I would say it is better to leave them lie in repose until if and when it Can be done properly.
William
"Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."
The programme has been pulled from the broadcast timetables in both Australia and New Zealand because of the complaints but despite the complaints from the Archaeological world at the moment Channel 5 in the UK are still going to air it on the 9th !
The gates of hell were opened and we accepted the invitation to enter" 26/880 Lance Sgt, Edward Dyke. 26th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers , ( 3rd Tyneside Irish )
1st July 1916
Thought shall be the harder , heart the keener,
Courage the greater as our strength faileth.
Here lies our leader ,in the dust of his greatness.
Who leaves him now , be damned forever.
We who are old now shall not leave this Battle,
But lie at his feet , in the dust with our leader
House Carles at the Battle of Hastings
I agree and I think this is the nub of the issue.
Repatriation of war dead with dignity and honour gives succour to the family of the rediscovered warriors whatever side on which they fought and is also a matter of national respect by/for the modern nation as well as an acknowledgement of the sacrifice of these men. I suppose in many ways one who has been a soldier will understand this easily enough but that is not to say that those who have not followed such a path are or should be less sensitive to this. Some people just need it pointing out to them and it is up to those with the appropriate knowledge (guess that is us guys!) to do so.
The crass and greedy morons such as those we discuss in this thread do nothing to help this process and actually hinder it. We should actively discourage them!
Just to add to the overall "CG" thing, I have often read the online magazine Military.Com as a way of keeping up to speed with my erstewhile US comrades but then I saw this;
Behind the Barrel: Bayonet | Military.com
and now I am wondering if I should!
I do not care to see such a subject reduced to almost comedy level.
Is there no end to the antics of this dickhead?
Regards
Mark
Last edited by Watchdog; 01-07-2016 at 10:15 PM. Reason: Typo correction
Some great points , I guess one man's god , is another man's false idol , also too the " Victory goes the Spoils " . If there is a chance for repatriation , I'd be for it , we've all seen the footage of advancing Red Army troops knocking over crosses marking German graves . And we all know the Germans were no angels when it came to the treatment of enemy dead . No matter how you slice it , your digging up a grave . It's the motives that drive the digging that make all the difference .
P.S. I've let my subscription to National Geographic magazine expire , because of Rupert .
I guess I feel like when history has sorted out something like war, the peace is restored, the criminals are being brought to justice, and people are returning to their lives as best they can, that then is the time when the dead should also be allowed the grace of having peace too. And, I guess I feel that way regardless of how they conducted their final moments, because they've lost all they had to lose anyway. Even the Germans of the 1940's deserve to be able to respect and honor the dignity and human value of their dead, as there's not one of us who has avoided the struggles of this life whatever path we might choose.
When a people reaches a point where they don't just mourn what they lost, but can also mourn what their enemies lost as well, that's when healing can happen. I don't see anything wrong with digging to uncover events and see into the past, and treat these fallen people to what I would expect they almost all would want, a return home. But, the respect has got to be there, whether your digging in Russia or standing over the ruins of the USS Arizona in Hawaii.
William makes an excellent point in his distinction between graves made by a family for their loved ones, vs a grave made by time for someone who died in a hole in the ground far away from home and was left there. If I died in WW2 in one of these fields, I can honestly say having someone who respects human remains find me, who will take me home, would have to be the highest hope I could have and a far bigger consideration over the violation of being dug up. Your mileage may vary though, that's just how I feel about it.
In any case, this discussion is fascinating. I'm glad it was posted here, and I'm glad I can be a part of it.
This today in the mail newspaper Channel 5 accused of disrespecting war dead after showing Nazi War Diggers | Daily Mail Online
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