Almost black grip... NSKK Dienstdolch ?

[gerrit]

My thoughts aswell

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Ger, i read somwhere that they sometimes painted the grip when they painted the scabard black?? has anyone else heard of this??
cheers Ronnie

Ronnie i think besides the factory repainted/painted black daggers, issued when you entered the marine Sa as a newby, it all came down to 1 big question when you where already in the SA and made the switch:
Are you fond enough to keep your dagger and paint it black when you switched from SA to marine SA or NSKK.
I can imagine that you get kind of attachted to it, and rather paint it then get a new one......
So i think Yes can be the answer.

Cheers,
Ger

[Walkwolf]

These sold for about 3.50 Marks back then, which might be something like
$300 or $400 today - based on an average wage of just over a dollar
a day in the 1930's. This is another reason why most Rohm dagger
inscriptions were ground off, instead of someone having to lay out
cash for a new knife, so it does make sense to paint the one
you already paid good money for.

What would someone expect to pay for a black handled Marine SA
dagger today, seeing that they are rather rare.........?

[Larry C]

Horst your SA Mann must of not been a beer drinker back then as he had the money to be able afford a leather covered scabbard!

[BOB COLEMAN]

Horst-
Your dagger and the owner provenance is a wonderful set. I note that your dagger also does not have gilded crossguards. Thanks for showing this wonderful set from your collection. I am sure that one can instantly tell the difference between a factory finished handle and scabbard and a home done job.

[Larry C]

I would like to know where the line was drawn on how much control the Marine SA had as to the Water Protection Police? All I can gather at the moment is that The Marine SA dominated all the northern sea ports,,,but still does not explain why we see an Nrh gruppe mark on a few SA marines when that region was not a sea port. My guess would be that Germany...since it was filled with rivers by ways and tributaries,, the The Marine SA had some control,, but where and what role did the Water Protection Police come into play? Marine SA is a political branch verses a Non Political branch.

@ Bob Coleman your quote...These daggers are so obscure, much of the information on them is only verbal lore.....I have to agree as there just isnt enough research and evidence that would support many theories. I am hopeful ,,and the BIG WHEN!!!!...Tom Wittmanns SA book is released ,, that he would shed some light on such an,,, information vague subject. Larry

Alot of great posts!! Keep em coming!

[Lowboy]

Horst... Thank you so much for showing!!

[BOB COLEMAN]

Larry-
My Marine dagger is Gruppe Marked SW for Sudwest. As these guys were part timers, likely their responsibilities were subordinate to the Water Protection Police.

[Horst]

The 1943 Organization book of the NSDAP specifies that any SA man who from trade are or were seaman either merchant marine , Kriegsmarine or in land water sailors also those SA men that were interested in navigation were to be part of the Marine SA.
One needs to remember that inland waterways are very important to Germany i.e. Rhein, Main,Donau, etc are regular waterways used to transport goods not only within Germany but other European countires- therefore the marine SA units were not restricted to coastal areas making SA group markings from almost all areas possible. These mantioned waterways would also become important during the war to move men and materials.

Thanks to all for the kind words realtive to my Marine dagger and document -
Horst

[Larry C]

Great information Horst,, I did some digging around myself and found some images of a Water Protection Poliice dagger. Very similiar to the 2nd Model naval dagger except for the grip being black with a Police crest and eagle on the grip and the pommel being different.
It also makes sense Horst about the waterways you mentioned,,which clears the way of any doubt that Gruppe marks for these daggers were not limited to the coastal areas,, but all through out Germany! ( I make no claim to these photos nor does this dagger belong to me,, but used for reference purposes only). The dagger pictured is a very rare example as much so as the Marine SA. Take special not that the blade and scabbard are standard. regards Larry

[Horst]

Larry - WASSERSCHUTZPOLIZEI(Waterways Protection Police) are not to be confused with the Marine SA, as they were a part of the Schutzpolizei there responsabilities were for policing/patrolling all navigable inland rivers,canals etc regulating traffic,preventing smuggling,inforcing safety regulations & inspecting shipping on inland waters whereas the Marine SA was initally organized to bring together all those members who were sailors - there peacetime function was to assist in waterway disasters and be ambassadors of the German peoples to other maritime nations. During the war members were drafted into the Kriegsmarine or instructors teaching members of the Marine HJ in seamanship , preparing them for the Kriegsmarine.

As to the Wasserschutz dagger you pictured, I really dont like the look of it i.e the grip emblem is far to large and the leather grip looks odd, also the pommel dosent have true detail.

Heres mine :



Horst