Unserem Lieben Kameraden Hage Sturm 23/2 translates to
"Our Dear Comrades Hage Sturm 23/2"
H. A. Erbe AG / Solingen
Unserem Lieben Kameraden Hage Sturm 23/2 translates to
"Our Dear Comrades Hage Sturm 23/2"
Nice mid period fitted dagger. Shows great craftmanship with a rare "FAT" Rzm logo. Impressive amount of laquer left on the grip..but what happened to the top of the grip?..looks bubble up..can you give other angled pics of that area? Regards Larry
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!- Larry C
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Well here are my 2 cents and im sorry to say but I do not have a good feeling seeing this one.
As far as i know is Erbe not known for having made early SA daggers, their production seem to be starting up from 1938.
This one is half early and half late rzm, not even a transitional logo ( which is also not known eather).
The scabbard has a different curve and doesnt fit well to the guard, best seen up front where the guard goes up on the left and the throat doesnt.
It cant be corrected pushing it as much to the left as possible in its scabbard, the curve simply doesnt match.
This scabbard should not be anodised but painted, i dont think it belongs to the guards or blade.
Rzm grip and blade but nickel fittings.
Engraving on the back of the guard? and pressure bubbling at the top of the grip? looks like its not been properly reassembled.
Nothing on this dagger convinced me that its an unmessed one.
Regards,
Ger
Here is an extra penny for your thoughtsThere are Rzm numbers that are mid period and are not dual logo.
The fitting of these mid period daggers and transitionals were the turning point of craftmanship..some excellent and some not so well fitted. These changing times we see varied by the producer. the anodized scabbard..I can not write off as incorrrect since we do see early fittings... ie: grips crossguards nickel eagles from time to time. I have to agree with Gerrit on one aspect..that..it may be 50/50 if this scabbard belonged or not. My thoughts are that parts from the early and mid period should not be dismissed as mismatched.
Im not going to comment on the engraving..not sure when this was performed. and the bubbling on the grip is an oddity..which almost seems the wood haas something underneath it....need close ups of that..still waitng on Max to provide photos.
A messed with dagger...anything is possible! The use of early to Mid period fittings on transitional daggers including dated single logos?....very possible.
Rzm permit for dagger production issued in 1935 and withdrawn in 1939.
also withdrawn was their permit in 1937 for belt buckle production. Not really a high average baseball score..and IMO may be a reason why their daggers did not appeal to the RZM. A rarity?...for the RZM number type collector...yes .
Regards Larry
Last edited by Larry C; 11-19-2014 at 12:41 PM.
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
I can say that this dagger was sent to Tom Wittmann around 2006 to be examined and photographed for use in his proposed book on SA Daggers that he was working on at the time. During our conversations at no time did he suspect this dagger was incorrect or was suspicious about it.
As far as nickel fitting an anodized scabbard, this was the time when they were transitioning from Maker marks to RZM daggers and is attributed to using up left over stock. And RZM daggers are known not to be of the same quality as the MM daggers
I looked at the tang nut and inscription under a powerful loop. The nut does not appear to be turned and the inscription is smooth surfaced. It does not have the characteristic swirl marks of a modern engraving tool.
Other daggers
Dark Grip SA - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums
I also only paid very little for this dagger and not what one would expect to pay for a "dedicated" dagger. If this was messed with to increase it's value it would have sold for much more. For instance Whitmann has a dedicated dagger for $1695 (Wittmann Militaria #36429C Early SA Dagger by Gust. Weyersberg)
Here is a mid period dagger with nickel fittings and RZM mark. There are many examples on Wittmann's site of this Wittmann Militaria #34901C Mid-Period SA Dagger (RZM M7/18)
Thank you for posting these additional pictures.
My biggest problem was not the use of different period materials like nickel and nickel plated steel, but the gap between the throat and the lower guard.
These are both early and should have a more then decent fit.
These additional photo's give a better insight in this dagger.
The throat is not placed horizontal regarding front and back, its slightly tilted backward, showing a gap that wouldnt be there if it would be installed properly.
The WAF link shows a same type dagger as yours and the statement of LST who has seen more with the same hardware.
Im glad you posted the extra pics, and ive learned something new!
Regards,
Ger
You're welcome. So it looks ok? I also put this on Germandaggers many years ago as well and no one had any issues.
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