My first SA Dienstdolch C. Eppenstein-sohne

[AZPhil]

Wf (WestFalen) was used for many SA makers, but unfortunately, so far as known, C. Eppenstein's group marks are Ho, Nm, and Wm. I wouldn't want to calculate the odds of finding a spare lower crossguard from Eppenstein, but you never know, I guess. In the meanwhile, like I said, it doesn't look Bad.

I thought the marking on the cross guard were for the Gruppe that the SA Mann belong to and not a manufacturers code. (Still Learning Here)
SF
Phil

[Wagriff]

I should have written that out better! The Gruppe marks were not makers marks, of course, but rather were the Gruppe areas that the makers products went through for distribution. So, yes-the marks were used by the various makers to designate the Distribution but were not Their manufacturing marks!

And, unfortunately, I would have to say that a mismatched part on a dagger would have a negative effect on it's full value. Most dagger collectors are "purists" and want to see everything original as it came from the factory.

[thanson]

I hate to ask but I've got about 500 into it.....how did I do knowing the crossguard is wrong?

[Wagriff]

You'd hate to ask, and I know that I hate to Answer, but if it was full original, $500 would have been a decent price. But...as a mismatch....you'd be hard pressed to get your purchase price back. Many dealers would not want to list a non-matching piece.

[thanson]

I hear ya, well I guess It could be worse, at least there's no repop parts on it. Ill just enjoy it as it is...It still is my first so I'll just learn more and won't make that mistake next time.

[AZPhil]

Just for future reference.
Is there a list of Gruppe markings and the Manufacturers that made those Gruppe daggers?

SF
Phil

[gerrit]

Hi Thanson,

well now that youve taking the first blow lets see what the pro's are
Its a tough maker to find, a 9 on the rarity list on a scale of 10 being the rarest.
Nice crisp makermark on a slightly polished blade ( whipe those fingerprints of it or they will burn into the blade)
Althou the lower guard isnt a match, the fit to the scabbards throat aint that bad, in fact its pretty decent and could have been a lot worse, the patina overal matches and the scabbard is the correct anodized one.
It has a nice grip, so it displays well!
Ive seen worse for first SA's in a collection believe me!
You will loose some money on it but it will be not a very expensive learning experience, ive done (on occasionaly) worse in my life

Regards,
Ger

[Larry C]

Hi Thanson...dont take it to heart,, the dagger is still early period all the way...I think you done well for $500..and as Gerrit said there are alot of good things about it. No telling what happened to it along the way..as it might of been a period replacement..but hard to say...it could of been done anytime. The whole dagger has been there during that time.

AGREED WITH GERRIT WIPE THOSE PRINTS OFF THE BLADE QUICKLY and for sure more so than the crossguard the dagger will depreciate in value. The blade is the heart of the dagger..take care of that first.

@ Phil ... Not all Gruppe marks are text book..and some still come out of vet collections untouched and undocumented. We occasionally see this with some producers. The fit..condition, overall patina are some some things to take into consideration when observing other same producer types. Internal markings ...but mainly the crossguard type. There is allowed a little bit of shrinkage,,,which is common after 80 years of temperature changes...and mostly seen side to side of the crossguard to grip fit..but not front to back.

Tom Johnson states when visiting and interviewing some of the remaining original producers still alive during the 60s and 70s..that these grips prior to staining or painting..were dipped into a Lime water solution..to harden the wood. ( I can not recall the Johnson book edition ) maybe Volume 6.
So there will will small shrinkage..but none from front to back of the grip,,that would be noticeable to the eye.

and @ Phil again..yes there is which is on file on Gruppe marks Known to producers in the SA Forum..which I keep tabs on and up to date as best I can.

SA Gruppe marks known to Dagger Producers and Manufacturers

Overall still a great dagger from a very old producer established in 1763. Regards Larry

[Larry C]

More information on wood grips..as found on Pg 57 Tom Johnsons Reference Vol. 6
( Quote: It was learned quite possibly by accident, that lime water had a great influence on wood. This was many trial and error methods that was applied to cut wood by the craftsmen of Solingen, who developed this particular treatment for the use of knife handles. After the wood of plum and wild cheery trees from nearby forests had been cut into the proper sized blocks....these were thrown into pits filled with Lime water and allowed to soak there for up to a full year.
This treatment produced the following results: The Lime water invaded the wood from the outside and slowly moving towards the center of the block. On its way it would harden the wood,, the sap would be removed and the outer "white " wood would turn to a pleasing natural brown color. Further if the wood showed an tendency to twist..it would do so in the water , taking its final shape and rendering it much more stable. Knife handles were made out of this material up to the late 1930s..until it slowly became too costly to use this long lasting process.
( End Quote )

This is a worth while read..if you have these references which speaks of the varied processes of dagger production. I can not say that this process was applied to Eppenstein..but IMO was used by some producers. Regardless woods shrink and expand due to climatic change..and depending upon certain woods used..they tend to shrink in size over the years creating those gaps we see so often in SA and SS grips.

Regards Larry

[maximus71]

Hi Thanson,
I did not want to break the bad news but when I saw the gaps in the grip to crossguard fit it sent a red flag up, all of this has been covered by the experts so I will just add that make sure you post the item here for opinions before you purchase if you can, my first SA was a leap of faith also but fortunately it turned out to be all original and I consider it my learning piece, I keep it out and handle it more then my others for study, you do not have a lot of money invested per say, so maybe keep an eye out for a properly marked crossguard and replace it? I do not condone taking a dagger apart but at least it would be more complete, that is up to you, it really is a nice one overall, the early ones are getting harder and more expensive to find, the maker mark is really rare and cool and the grip eagle has great detail!!!! the grip most likely did shrink so even with a proper crossguard it would probably still have a gap, so dont feel bad......................
I have seen worse gaps before!!!!! lol