SA Dagger / Dienstdolch - authenticity in question

[paulscoot]

Indeed a very interesting post and I hope that somebody gets to the bottom of this one way or another,Regards, Paul

[Lakesidetrader]

Thanks larry, where did you get the info.

[naptime]

Seems like we will never get to the bottom of it because how can we prove it to be real or not but I do appreciate everyone's opinions. Out of curiosity, why do some people think that this is a late war example? What aspects about the dagger tell us that? Just rzm code and no maker mark?

[Larry C]

Thanks Larry, where did you get the info.

Also in addition seen below is a Kaldenbach 1942 dated RZM code ..which conflicts with the RZM Mitteillungsblatt / RZM Directives Issue 6 quoting the Revoked license in 1937



Fishers exhaustive and comprehensive study into the surviving documents recovered from Solingen after the war..delves deeply into the RZM , All German Cutlery and Edged Weapon Producers. Original documentation can be found in the Solingen Stadt Archives.

Documents including photographic copies of Invoices to producers and sub contractors of total complete daggers or fittings ordered to complete assembly and shipment.

I do know that the Author has recently passed away..and the acquisition of this 9 volume set are getting to be as rare as Hens teeth in collecting circles. I was fortunate enough to acquire this set from a Cool and Gentlemanly dealer on the "Lakeside" from the Great White North

For the student who studies these Solingen knives..this difficult to obtain reference is as hard core as it gets.when studying Producer identity and the wave of the future the RZM number. A must have source reference when studying this Edged Hobby.

Regards Larry

[Gastvrijheid]

Larry; that's the RZM marking configuration I personally like to see on a late Kaldenbach. Agree with you on Fisher's Reference, a mine of information.

[Larry C]

I would still be interested on a production date of this particular RZM produced dagger.
I don't like invoking the "Passover". When studying producers ..only reading what i want to fit into my answers or findings... Or Passing right over details that matter most. I'm not out to trash daggers....but find more that could be supportive of it.

Spending money takes study first ! Regards Larry

[gerrit]

Larry here are my 2 cents:

RZM production Licences are a Time print, a revoke in 1937 would not necessarily mean that on a later date a new Licence would be granted, therefore it could mean that in this particular year they didnt had the licence to produce but maybe from '39 they might have had one?
Could that be possible?

When i see the latest pictures with that typical chrome wear on that top scabbard fitting, the great fit of the fittings, the lower crossguard wear and the typical black primer underneath the brown paint of the scabbard, i cant believe thaat this would be a '80th fake.
I wouldnt write this one off simply by saying that its 1937 RZM licenece has been revoked.

The etch aint that bad, and not so very shallow, and we all now how manufactorers like DeWitte & Helbig deliverd their etches, if shallow means bad, then a lot of collectors will cry big tears from now on.
I would love to have this one in hand and im curious to see thyis one opened up for learning purposes.

Regards
Ger

[naptime]

Really appreciate all of the feedback everyone. Is there anything I can do in terms of taking more pictures or videos to help further assess the construction and time period of the dagger? I am, by no means, an expert on SA daggers but I have gotten pretty good at sniffing out post-war production or parts daggers.

This particular dagger feels 100% right to me and it is among appx 20 items that I have purchased from the same vet estate with no other questions on the other items. That's obviously no guarantee that this dagger is OK but I do not question that these items did not return to the US in 1945 or earlier.

Truthfully, I have never put my hands on a post-war SA dagger that wasn't quite obvious to be either too new or messed with.

[Larry C]

Hi Ger yes the possibility does exist for any of these producers with an RZM license.
Another question to ask except for the early 1980s..when some of these,..later RZM daggers started coming out of the wood work ...how many of the same early made producer has come out of hiding in the late 20th century?
Only from what has been observed in RZM types ..and of course proven recent made daggers using period dies..and quite a,few non political daggers undetectably perfect ..in reproduction.

Also to be taken into consideration are these cottage maker marked RZM types. Sure they look consistent from what has been coming to appearance 30 yrs ago.
Just keeping an open mind..and the thought in the back of my head why was their license revoked.

Could we say that being under strict RZM regulation that this dagger was let out the door?......Kaldenbach is a high up there rarity 10....yet how plentiful are his early SAs compared ..to these RZM types.

A possibility exists that he may of wanted to try again producing daggers ...but I would expect more care and craft..coming from a cottage maker ..than what this dagger appears as a large company shove it out the door production piece.

Kaldenbach producing RZM SS daggers representing the SS looking like that?...I don't think so.
Comments ?

Regards Larry

[naptime]

The sun came out so I took a few more photos.