Article about: I thank everyone for their patience as I have promised that I would start a thread on Dagger runner preservation. You might of seen my thread on another forum pertaining to this subject. I w
I thank everyone for their patience as I have promised that I would start a thread on Dagger runner preservation. You might of seen my thread on another forum pertaining to this subject. I was inspired to write my own views and thoughts on this after reading member “ King Tigers” thread on the WAF. Also to follow is another thread on scabbard throat removal,,,which should be contemplated first in reading before any runner removal begins. Below are photos and description of what happens when we see runner marks on SA and SS daggers. A look into what can be done to preserve the runner from future growth of Vedigris and other hardened matter. Although the damage is irreversible which is seen on the dagger blade,,at this process no further damage will occur if done corrrectly.
My views on this type of preservation shold not be taken as “Gospel” as there are mixed opinions on disassembly or any type of altering. Some feel to leave this well enough alone,, others may want to preserve their Historical example from further deterioration. I will say to those that,, this is a process that will take time and patience,, and some mechanical know how. I myself can acomplish this task in 3-4 hours each dagger given the extreme of damage to the runner and blade. Something like this can not be rushed. Nickel silver is a soft metal that will smudge and smear and not taken seriously. NO MISTAKES can be made, during this process as this will depreciate the value of your scabbard fitting,, and scabbard screws. Worst of all the runners them selves as most I have seen have not been moved in 70 some years and are only retained by a pop rivet. Below you will see the original text from what I wrote a few years ago.
Please also for your patience I had to number the photos and descripiton posts as sometimes the photos posted do don’t fall in the correct numerical order sometimes. Match the numbers just in case this happens. Best regards Larry
Photo #2
On my Gebr. Becker early SA there were stain marks on 4 places front and back of the blade. I tried to photgraph the stain marks but I could not do it because of the lighting and the angle. I know these marks came from the runners inside the scabbard. So I carefully disassembled it and took a look at what was causing it. Look for a small headed screw driver with no play between the screw and the srewdriver blade. It must fit perfect and not be oversized or undersized. One of the other if misused will marr your screws up. Find the perfect screwdriver first!!! This process is for those who are gifted in mechanics and are able to see things for what they are, through examination and application. If this is not you, then in all regards dont attempt it!!
Photo …..#3
4. The throat was also coated in what looks like dried oil turned black. This is the end result when someone puts oil into a dagger throat so as to “protect the dagger” per `se, which in the long run didn’t really protect it at all since it was never cared for. I do agree to a point by using a very light oil , but only if the dagger will be managed over time and not forgotten. I feel that this process of taking down a scabbard is not for everyone and I would highly recommend,, if you choose this route, buy a junky SA dagger and take it down. Don’t mix up your screws... take them out and separate them on a piece of paper with a handrawn picture of the upper scabbard fitting so as to see what screws went where!
Photos ……….#4
Plan on spending a few hours on this because this can not be rushed. I am fortunate that this type of runner has the rivet, and not the other type with the lip in the slot style!
My first process is getting as much as the topical crap and the runner stains off with “Neverdull”,, this worked very well but still left the stain marks lightly on the runners in the second photo.
Photo ………#5
I used simi chrome to loosen the rest of the marks off
Photo ……..#6
All that black stuff is dirt and carbon left in the brass. You also find this on dagger blades if you use simi chrome. This was a messy process but worth it. To clean of the black carbon mess I used small pieces of a cotton t shirt and kept rubbing it off until it was all gone going from Black to gray to light grey to nothing. This itself was a 20 minute process,,, slow and easy,, take your time as if you are waxing your car and appreciate the outcome when your car shines in the sun.
Photo ……..#7
Looks nice huh and no runner stains or marks,, but not done yet!! This was the end result of the "Rubbing process" with the cotton cloth.
Photos ……….#8
Renwax as we know it is the final touch of total protection. I purposely did not clean the throat during this process until later for photographic purposes. IMO the runners in an early SA or SS dagger will either make or break your investment when it is the Blade mostly that draws the most attention, to a perspective buyer. Blade quality is everything with overall dagger quality a close second!
Photos ……….#9
I repeated even more carefully this process on the dagger blade itself and treated it with Renwax in the end. Now the end result is that the dagger slides in quietly into the scabbard with a nice click at the end ,, that we like to hear.
Special note of runner distance between each other and the final phase of putting back together the dagger.
I just wanted to share with everyone my experience with runner crud and how oil sometimes is not the best for it if left unattended for a long period of time. This one seems like it was never taken down and the oil was probably my guess put in there just after the war. I know this topic has been addressed before but protection and conservation of historical artifacts, must be taken seriously, if they are to pass from our hands to the next generation of hands. I still see Model Ts driving on the road to this day and because of conservation, they are a story to live and tell. Appreciate the Honor. shortly to follow will be a thread on scabbard throat removal. Regards Larry
Last edited by Larry C; 10-27-2012 at 06:44 PM.
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Hi Larry,
I would also recommend that you be very careful which "NEVR-DULL" product you use. The one available here is okay for the chrome on your car but, has small hard particles in it. I would never use it on my daggers or anything that I REALLY care about. I would recommend you use simichrome or another product called Autosol. It may take a little longer, but it is worth it.
Ralph.
Last edited by rbminis; 10-28-2012 at 05:00 PM.
Searching for anything relating to, Anton Boos, 934 Stamm. Kp. Pz. Erz. Abt. 7, 3 Kompanie, Panzer-Regiment 2, 16th Panzer-Division (My father)
Hi Gerrit,, this is true as many are afraid to do so,,which there is nothing wrong with feeling that way.... no doubt. I created this thread as an option ...but not a necessity. The alternatives are there if one wants to venture into that area. I am hopeful that this thread creates alot of dialogue as there are pros and cons to this option and those whos opinions have some reservations with a move like this. I would like to hear what others think as there are no wrong comments. I have not done this with every dagger that I have,,, and there are some I have left well enough alone. When someone finds a ground dug artifact..its usually up to that person if they want to leave it crusty or not. Its still a piece of History. I just wanted to share my experience with this.
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Thanks Larry: the key to all of this is a correct sized screwdriver (not the first thing that comes to hand in the kitchen drawer!) and time and patience.
Cheers, Ade.
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Larry, the semi chrome removed the runner marks on the blades it was used on?
If so, I wonder if Dupont #2 polish would do the same.
I do have diamond polish in ultra fine grit (3000, 4000 & 5000) but using any of these products for polishing, my fear is the factory polishing marks when the factory did the final polishing would be damaged or reduced to where the polishing marks would become interrupted.
For what it's worth, I use a corrosion inhibitor called CarWell cP90. After application let the exposed blade sit outside the scabbard for 72 hours and then wipe down any residue.
The metal absorbs the inhibitor along with a very small % of the carrier oil which is similar to an SAE 8 viscosity.
Once treated in full out door atmospheric exposure the window of efficacy is 12 months. in a scabbard that would be extended for a year to 2 years.
I use the CarWell on WWII vintage semi auto pistols anbd have nothing but great success with it and have been using it near 20 years. No more CLP!
The simichrome worked best removing that hard muck and not doing any damage at all to the runners. Choose wisely if you decide to go the route of cleanig runners.
Not every scabbard willbe the same and I stated that in the link I provided in the scabbard removal thread.
The other thing to watch out for what I did NOT mention is that with some scabbard screws ....over the course of time..the edge of the blade going in and out of the scabbard ..rubs against the upper fitting screws internally ..creating a split at its screw point...causing it to flare out...the issue is that once there are flared screw points ...it is impossible for the screw to come out and will only turn so far.
Thats when you stop !
Anyway..I got off track a little but it all coincides together when thinking about performing this task.
Best Larry
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Larry, I've taken a few daggers down many years ago the clean as you have done in your explanation.
A lot of goo inside them was removed along the runners tounge at the blade runners pinch finger.
And yes, the screw driver fit to the screw head will help in keeping burrs caused by the screw driver jumping the screws slot damaging the head of the screw from happening.
I've seen a video on maintaining weapons on how to clean the screw burr if that happens but the bad thing is that once a burr happens the screw at the slot becomes deformed at the end of the slot and potentially the mouth where the screw drivers drive blade slipped and caused the burr.
The CarWell CP90 I mentioned aids in helping screws to be made loose much easier as it does penetrate into near zero tolerance areas to allow easier removal. You have to inject a small amount into the dagger scabbard, then turn it onto it's side where the sides meet with the scabbard opening point facing downward. Let it rest for a couple hours and Viola the screws are much easier and freer to turn and remove.
Thank you for this thread! I didn't even know what the inner workings of the dagger scabbard looked like until now! Interesting that the scabbards mouthplate still has two metal tongues made of brass which of course are not visible from the outside. I immediately looked at my two SA and SS daggers with a flashlight and was amazed that it was actually clearly visible! But I wouldn't go so far as to take my daggers apart now, though.
SA / SS Runners preservation
- Larry C
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