1936 Chained SS Dagger, or is it?

[Externsteine]

Larry,

I will take some photos in the daylight and see if we can clear anything up that way.

I paid nothing for this dagger. It was given to me (along with a Luftwaffe dress daggger, which I'll post later) by an old friend who paid $100 for it in the 1970s (I wasn't born until the 1980s) and he has kept it in a place of honour in his home since then.

This comrade believed he was passing on a very rare and valuable historical treasure, so I do have an emotional investment in this piece, which is why I am coming up with these elaborate scenarios whereby the original owner could have mismatched the scabbard and dagger. I desperately want this to be the case, but I know that it is a long-shot, like purchasing a lottery ticket. Could it happen? Sure. It could, but it's highly unlikely.

The chain links coming apart (you can actually manipulate the metal with your hands, and the few seams which have not broken look as if they could at any moment) was a shock to me. I can't imagine that this would pass quality control of a German craftsman. However, the links are so "kosher" in every other respect (fine detail in eyes, teeth, ball joints; no sign of casting; evenly pebbled; Kulturzeichen, etc) that I was inclined to disregard those red flags and attribute it to the weakness of war metals.

As for why I seemingly know a lot about this topic but couldn't tell a blued scabbard from a painted one, well, I am not a collector, and I have no experience. I am a graduate student whose main area of focus is modern German history. All of my information is derived from books, some of which have badly misled me.

Prior to receiving this dagger, I have never actually seen an M36 in real life. The pictures of painted scabbards that I have seen were very beat up, whereas this one is still shiny and bright, and has only a few scratches in the "lacquer" finish. I have never seen a photo of a painted scabbard that clean. Perhaps that's because Atwood decided to replace the center ramp and throw an out-of-the-box chain on it after he found it laying around.

I mentioned Wittmann because he lives in NJ and so do I. I was going to travel there (several hour drive) for his assessment, but it would mean nothing to me after he signed off on that Eicke dagger. I see your point though: this is not the thread to discuss that.

I am desperately hoping it was swapped by the original owner pre-1945; however, I value Truth above all, so if this is a Frankenstein, I will accept it.What really vexes me is an inability to come to a definitive conclusion. I could be sitting on the real deal, but I will never know...

What I want to identify is anything that is outright REPRO. Replacement parts and Atwood daggers are one thing, but if the clasp on Wotan's Knot is repro, I will be very sorely disappointed, indeed.

I have no doubts about the dagger itself at this point, so any way this turns out, it is a gain for me, as I now own an SS dagger. The book on which I have placed the dagger in the first photograph may give you an indication of just how much that means to me.

Even if the entire thing were a reproduction, it would still have some (American) historical value, as it was purchased from one of George Lincoln Rockwell's ANP guys and he used it in some of their rites.

Doubtless, some will cringe at that bit of data, but the fact that Rockwell held this dagger is something that adds value for me.

Once again, I'd like to thank all of you for your feedback.

[Frogprince]

Larry,

I will take some photos in the daylight and see if we can clear anything up that way........................

If you want a more complete assessment, I think that besides the scabbard/links, some photos of the dagger and its fittings would also be helpful. Regards, FP

[Externsteine]

FP,

Yes, I'll photograph both. Is there anything in particular that I should photograph?

I am very tempted to take it down in order to view the tang and examine the crossguards for any inner markings, etc. but I know just enough about this subject to know that I don't have the skill to do it. I would end up breaking the tang nut or something like that and hate myself.

[Frogprince]

FP,

Yes, I'll photograph both. Is there anything in particular that I should photograph? ............................

The usual areas photographed are the blade and its polish, with special attention to the etched markings, and especially the makers mark (TM). With the grip/handle portion it's the crossguards and how they fit the wood - including the juncture of the crossguard and the blade. And of course the wood itself, also paying attention to the eagle and the SS roundel. And the pommel nut to see what it looks like. In other words "the usual suspects" as if you were doing a point by point inspection which could be compared to the body of knowledge that collectors find useful. Which if good usable high resolution pictures are taken - cuts down on the number of pictures needed. Which also applies to the scabbard and the links/center fitting. With the "skull" link IMO being more important the the "runes" link. And the center fitting more important than the top and bottom. The 'SS-Kulturzeichen'. And a request has been made for the screws, which I also observed, as a place that would get a look "in hand". Regards, FP

[Larry C]

Welcome to the world of collecting as a graduate student then you know there will be some tough lessons to be learned,,and through that you will emerge more knowledgeable than when you first started. In this hobby there is much wishful thinking in wanting no matter how bad we want it to be 100% real.. the reality of it is,, in this day and age ,, its really not all a 100% period example. This forum which you will graduate here for free with no money to be paid into it. We encourage here at the WRF to donate for the mass amount of knowledge that is throughout this whole website...a mere $25...but that is optional for the new member but we still give our years of assessment for for free. No one is going to brow beat you but we will not lie to you either...the last thing anyone wants in this hobby is to be lied to and find out later that persons word is worthless. We dont make this stuff up as we go along...most of us out here read and study daily,, just as you do as a graduate student,, being in this hobby it is life long and there is no graduation except the fact of being able to share with the younger generation as yourself,,what took decades for the others here to achieve. So if our assessments sound hard and biting...personally its not an attack on you but on what we see with the given images you provide. Have you ever turned in a term paper without most of the facts and recieve an A+?? Well the same goes for the lack of images so our grading system is based on what we are given in a new thread. If you want to learn something,, I encourage you to stay,,but dont come here,,and tell our seasoned collectors why you think we are wrong when you yourself have said you are not a collector. This hobby is hard,, but rewarding when we find out that what we study helped us to see the differences in repro parts and authentic. I am halfway between you and Wittmann in NJ and Vineland is spelled with an "e".
We are looking forward to the photos,, take your time,, lets do this the right way. gauranteed you will get more out of a tough course of learning than for a student to cut and paste their essay without any study. You will see a difference in yourself and the knowledge gained. Keep asking questions,,and post your theories..we enjoy that here. best regards Larry

[Externsteine]

FP,

In the photos that I did provide of the dagger thus far, do you have any concerns? Or they're just too washed out to extrapolate anything useful?

If the chain is fake, I will be truly shocked. If that's cast metal, it must have been done by a very skilled man using the wax technique, as the detail is very fine. The death heads look like they are smiling for the dentist; not at all like the sloppy castings you normally find...

[Scout]

I look forward to more pics.

[Externsteine]

Thanks for the welcome. I live in North Jersey (Hudson County), not Vineland. I used the term Vinland to refer to North America, as I follow the path of Asatru.

I encourage you to stay,,but dont come here,,and tell our seasoned collectors why you think we are wrong when you yourself have said you are not a collector.

Have I done this? If so, it was unintentional. As I said, I am emotionally invested in the piece because it would break my friend's heart to know that it was not 100% legit, but I have not tried to assert superiority of knowledge to anyone, let alone seasoned collectors. Quite the opposite: I have been very frank about the lack of anything other than (often flawed) "book knowledge" on this subject. I stated flatly that I have never even held an M36 prior to this one.

I am 100% on the level with everything I post and I would happily meet any local members for a beer to confirm that.

I'll take some more photos and we'll go from there. I appreciate all the help that I have received thus far (and I did much researching here prior to posting) and will duly consider joining the WRF for that reason.

[mauser9]

It sure looks great in my opinion. Am sure you are aware if genuine it is worth several thousand dollars. These SS items such as helmets, SS contract Mausers, or knives are all worth big bucks and highly sought after. Hope it proves to be the real deal for you. Good Luck.

[Externsteine]

Mauser,

Thanks for the feedback. I am aware of the retail value of an M36, but I would never sell this dagger for any amount of money. I promised the man who gave it to me that as long as I live, it will be well cared for and remain in the hands of someone who can appreciate its significance.

Prior to giving me these items, he queried me on their worth, assuming legitimacy. I knew that if I told him the truth, he might decline to part with the items, but I could never live with myself if I lied to him and obtained these things dishonourably. He thanked me for my honesty and knowingly handed over items worth thousands of dollars. I was incredibly touched by this gesture, which is why I am fighting so hard to prove the legitimacy of the items received.