H. Himmler's Christmas SS dagger????

[KRISSE]

Hello people,

this topic is meant to start a interesting new (to me) discussion, speculation,... regarding Himmler's SS dagger shown on this picture.

Yesterday I've found this picture on the internet of H. Himmler, Wolff, Dietrich,...
I'm posting this picture to look at Himmler's dagger that he's wearing.

Looking closely to the dagger it looks like his SS dagger is bearing the pointy wing eagle instead of the standard eagle
that is seen on most SS and SA daggers.
These kind of eagle's are found on the very early prototype so called 'Christmas SA daggers'. Couple of these daggers
are known to reside in collections today.

So, my questions here now are:

Did there ever exist SS Christmas daggers? I guess so, as seen on the picture...
And, if so, what would have been the inscription/maker back then?
Because at that time H. Himmler wasn't RFSS yet and still under command of the SA.

I also assume that H. Himmler had more then one dagger... (Honor dagger?)
Is there anyone that knows any surviving example of such SS dagger with a, I shall call it a 'Christmas eagle'?

Thank you guys for any comment.

Kris

[Wagriff]

Unfortunately, from the photo, I am unable to note any differences..

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Mr. d'Alquen is the master of SS photos bar none, and he can likely date this image, as there are some clues here.

I have seen this image before, and think it is around the time of the liquidation of Roehm, etc, but I am not sure.

I have no idea about daggers, other than I have owned four or five of them, and that's it.

[big ned]

The photo was apparently taken in 1934. Sepp Dietrich and Karl Wolff are present in front of, and behind Himmler respectively. But I guess that's pretty obvious to most here. Wolff seems to be wearing his Ehrenring. The first ones presented in 1933 were known as "Christmas rings" due to the bestowal date of 24.12.33 and Wolff was a known recipient of one of these original Totenkopf rings. It went "missing" in the 1990's and has not been seen since.

So, Daggers or rings, both these items in the photo seem to bear the same nomenclature.

Regards, Ned.

[KRISSE]

Unfortunately, from the photo, I am unable to note any differences..

Well, to my eyes it is very clear that the wreath with swastika in it is bigger then the standard gripeagle. Especially when compared with the eagle's wings.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Good luck with that one. I think we often are in pursuit of fata morgana and chimaera with all of this.

Maybe our most gifted members can pin point the time and date better than can I.

I do not want to do harm to expertise here, but I have been through a lot of these photo contests with mixed results.

To my friend in Belgium, do you have a clear image of such a dagger, or is this common knowledge?

[HPL2008]

Definitely 1934:

Karl Wolff is wearing the rank insignia for a Standartenführer. He was promoted to this rank on 20 April 1934 and then to Oberführer on 4 July 1934.

Sepp Dietrich is wearing the Ehrenwinkel für Alte Kämpfer, which was instituted in February 1934, and rank insignia for a Gruppenführer. He was next promoted to Obergruppenführer on 1 July 1934.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Definitely 1934:

Karl Wolff is wearing the rank insignia for a Standartenführer. He was promoted to this rank on 20 April 1934 and then to Oberführer on 4 July 1934.

Thank you, Andreas, as I wrote, "our most gifted members."

[KRISSE]

Good luck with that one. I think we often are in pursuit of fata morgana and chimaera with all of this.

Maybe our most gifted members can pin point the time and date better than can I.

I do not want to do harm to expertise here, but I have been through a lot of these photo contests with mixed results.

To my friend in Belgium, do you have a clear image of such a dagger, or is this common knowledge?

Thanks for the replies FB.

I got this picture of Germandaggers.com from the SA-dagger section.
I hope the poster don't mind that I borrowed the picture.
It is a very early prototype SA dagger with inscription 'Deutschland über alles' instead of 'Alles für Deutschland'.
Imo this is the exact same type eagle that's shown on Himmler's dagger in the picture that started this thread.
So, please compare well and let me know what you think.
Please don't tell me that I'm getting blind or crazy.... :-)

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Aha! New knowledge and thanks for sharing it. I am not a dagger collector. I have no idea whether your contemporary illustration jibes with Heini H.'s dagger.
As I say, I leave this issue to the experts.
I collect the black caps and the black jackets.