by Larry C
There you are, our experts raise their voice to answer the call!
There you are, our experts raise their voice to answer the call!
Paper bound catalogs in their glory.
Found 3 photos.... and will post them soon.
The photos I found are that of a Chained SS example with Painted scabbard..hallmarked .800 silver beneath the crossguard including a Kulturzeichen on the opposite side of the crossguard. Also Hallmarked .800 on one of the Chain tabs.
Early style SS eagle with SS runes button.
Once I get the best images ..I will also post the write up that went along with this scary Christmas dagger of 1933.
Patience Gents..I want to this to go off with a Bang !!
Regards Larry
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Found this picture on the internet of an SA Christmas presentation dagger to compare.
Steve
A question...are Any of Himmler's daggers whereabouts known? Or any other of the SS big names? Kaltenbrunner, Eicke,Dietrich, Eichmann,Heydrich,Borman, etc? Anyone?
William
"Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."
One of Himmlers daggers..an engraved Chained SS with oakleaf motif..bearing HH on on the upper scabbard fitting..is presently in the collection of Wolfe-Hardin . There is another in the West Point Museum...and a slew of high leader characters SS Honor degens that are listed in Wittmanns SS reference residing in the Late Robert Waite collection..including Martin Bormanns sword.
Last edited by Larry C; 09-20-2016 at 11:42 PM.
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
I thankyou Gentlemen for your endured patience to my reply regarding the rare but interesting thread Krisse has started. Yes a very small handful of the Christmas SA and SS daggers did exist. It is a rarity in itself the SA Christmas dagger that Krisse has posted which belongs to Paul Hogle aka Lakesidetrader …but to surface a complimenting Early SS example is beyond Hens teeth but gums !
To begin for those who have Thomas Wittmanns SS reference can view 5 excellent photos on pg 656- 660. I will post only one photo from Tom reference and not to compromise any copyright infringement issues. I will also include the 3 photos found on his Winter 1995 Wittmann Offerring catalog which will show some details of this ultra elusive dagger.
Now for the the guys who like details ..I thank HPL2008 and Friedrich Berthold for their hard work here bringing forth the time frame to which these uniforms came to be . Heinrich Himmler was just as much of a vane individual as Hermann Goring, having many dagger types ..one for every occasion. It is in my opinion that Himmler chose to wear this dagger for such an occcasion that the Historians here can add that it may be close, or just before, to the Rohm purge.
Unfortunately in the photo in Krisse first post does not show any other grip eagle types.
The possibility may exist that Wolfe may have been entitled but as Himmlers adjutant its just speculation. The SA and SS daggers became into full production after the 1933 Christmas ..and into the new 1934 year. Only 6 months away to knock off Rohm.
This dagger in the first post …for the dagger detailed guys..will notice a heavier upper crossguard type compared to what Tom Wittmann has illustrated in his Offering catalog. The guard on this example is shown of the thinner type.
This dagger that Himmler wears IMO may have been another variant that Eickhorn used as seen on Paul Hogles Dagger shown below. A discussion had ensued on the GDC identifying the guards as possibly being Ernst Pack !
Photo credit WRF Member Den70
Christmas in June! - GermanDaggers.com
( SA Christmas dagger pics )..including SA general pic CH1 plus CH 15 and CH 20
( Further down in my post I will include the write up seen in Wittanns Offering for those who love the detail of these edged wonders ..to savory over ever corner and groove. )
( Quote Tom Wittmans SS Reference : “It is the opinion of this writer that this dagger is a prototype for the 1936 model and that it was most probably prepared in mid 1933, but not accepted for use until 1936. This opinion is based on the same earlier pointed wing model 1929 eagle device as in the grip of the SA prototype shown in an earlier reference. At the time the cost of this prototype , with its expensive chain assembly would have been prohibitive. The unmarked blade is forged in genuine maiden hair pattern damascus , but is void of the SS motto. It is interesting to note that other known SS protoypes do not include the motto”. ( End quote Thomas Wittmann)
If I may add that there is no producer logo present as I said above that I will post further below the total description breakdown of the dagger which will address all details.
I have had the pleasure of holding the dagger shown in Wittmanns Offering in 1995 to examine by chance as I was at his residence to acquire and coming from the same catalog my Personalized Heer dagger with hangers and Soldbuch named to Hans Kaeser ..seen in Toms Army Reference. …and also a thread here on the WRF
Personalized Holler dagger w/ Soldbuch and Hangers
Below is a few pics of the catalog and the dagger I purchased which led me to purchase it directly. How did I come about to view the SS Christmas dagger? I was employed at the same company that performed his printing of these catalogs ..and I was the first to see the art work with ALL the photos before it went to the Printing operation. I also saw the SS dagger above..and viewed it the same time I paid for the Hans Kaeser Heer dagger. It doesn’t get anymore local than that..21 yrs ago.
I witnessed an umessed with dagger showing some age but no abuse. Amazing to see 2 Kulterzeichens on the same dagger. The grip was impressive and showing some grey through the black colored grip which was the ebony beneath.
In closing all I can say that these did exist according to period photos seen above ..but yet VERY rare in its own right of this early 1st type. ..Later into the 1934 period the same gothic motto font was used on standard SA em daggers with the new standard eagle. I don’t know the exact production run of the 2nd type Christmas font..but would have to assume a small 500 to 1000 run. These 2nd types..if found will be in the 10K range .
Early "A" SA ground Rohm Ehrendolch
Below is the item description featured and described in detail of the Early SS Christmas dagger seen in Thomas Wittmanns 1995 Offering
A great study thread in early period uniforms and side arm accoutrements
Regards Larry
Presently this dagger may still remain in the Edged Weapons Magnate the Late Robert Waittes collection .
( Thomas Wittmann Quote )
This one of a kind custom made Chained SS dagger surfaced a few years ago out of the Seattle area. Unfortunatley I heard about it, but was not quick enough to get my money where my mouth was, and one of my able competitors beat me to the punch. Oh well it seems it all comes around again anyhow, so here I am with this outstanding artifact on my list.
Why this dagger was produced is anyones guess. It is possible it was made on special order, or even produced as a possible upgrade, falling between the standard example and the Honor dagger. The entire dagger remains in an uncleaned and untouched condition. Fortunatlely the past owners had the foresight to leave the dagger alone. All parts beautifully patined. The crossguards are made of silver, the lower example being stamped under the lft quillion arm.”.800” along with the international silver hallmarks of the “ lantern and crescent”.
The right quillion is stamped with the SS sigrunnen prook marks. These guards were produced by the Carl Eickhorn firm as they are internally marked “H.E. “. They are beautifully cast , having smooth surfaces, still crisp edges, and hand done acccent grooves. The grip is a splendid piece of wood, appearing to be a very grainy ebony. It has been hand shaped and is thinner and more graceful, than a standard example. It is in perfect condition fitting the crossguards tightly.
The SS runes button is made of silver, having raised SS runes, with black burnished background - almost looks like a miniature version of the runes button appearing on the grip of an SS honor degen. The grip eagle is a fabulous creation in silver.It is the early party form bird having the stubby wings, fine vaulted chest, and talons which clutch a swastika. Studying the bird through a loop , the viewer immediately sees this insignia is indeed a work of art in itself. Looks entirely handmade, and extremely beautiful.
The scabbard shell is a normal black painted version. Although the shell is totally straight, the paint has age spidered quite a bit. It is all there. The upper and lower scabbard fittings are also of silver construction, being exatly toned the same as the crossguards. They are in perfect condition, having untouched silver screws . The center fitting and the chain assembly are identical to the SS Honor Chained dagger arrangement. In fact for those collectors with an original addition of Johnson Volume 3,.. the Himmler Personal Chained SS Honor dagger appearing on this cover, is equipped with an identical assembly as this dagger.
The Center ramp is magnificient, having the sharpest crisp edges I have seen.The Intertwined swastikas raised out of the center band show detail to the extreme. Instead of the noral squared design , chain holding ramps soldered to the scabbard, this example has ramps which are in the same form as the connectors. This identical procedure was used on the Himmler Honor dagger.
The chain assembly itself is also the best detail I have seen . It is the Type 2 style, and all the S runes and skull and crossbones links have been cast in silver. – beautiful in its horror ! The backgrounding of these links are totally black. Both the upper and ower chain assemblies have a link which is silver hallmarked, identically to the crossgaurd stamping. The only nickel part of this chain is the snap clip – from the back, its more yellow metal tone contrasts slightly to the black of these all silver fittings. The Reverse of the 2nd lower link is SS proofed in the normal way The quality of this assembly , is beyond anything normally seen with standard daggers. – absolute superb craftmanship.
The blade is of true damsacus having large swirl style pattern. It is a traditional political shape, however there is no motto or maker mark , or for that matter, a tang marking. No question though, the damascus is the real thing. It is a very beautiful pattern almost seeming to have a silvery shimmer to the highlighted of the swirl design. It is in near mint condition, having only a couple of extremely minor signs proving the blade is old.There is an original to the piece leather washer – this is pressed into the shaping of the scabbard throat.A truly great Chained SS dagger.. Would certainly be the highlight of any collection. Should be in a museum one day to demonstrate the craftmanship available during the period. A real stunner for the SS appreciators out there! Uncleaned Near Mint $ 29,995.00 – Thomas Wittmann
Last edited by Larry C; 09-21-2016 at 09:56 AM.
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Thank you very much for your effort Larry. It is fantastic and fascinating information.
It's almost to much to absorb. :-)
Btw, I wished that HH chained was mine I guess... :-)))))
Last edited by KRISSE; 09-21-2016 at 12:34 PM.
Larry, thank you for showing all that detail of the Himmler Christmas dagger. I remember it from the Wittmann Offering back in 1995, but never had the pleasure of seeing it in hand. About 10 years before that I did have a very brief opportunity to take snap shots of three chained SS-Honor daggers all in the same location, once in a lifetime chance. The centre piece is the dagger presented to Himmler by NSDAP Treasurer Schwarz, you can make out the engraved HH on the obverse upper scabbard chape. Unfortunateley in my haste the focus on the reverse blades did not pick up the raised gilt dedication. The right hand dagger with very worn scabbard leather wrap was the Honor dagger of SS Ogruf. Friedrich W. Kruger, part of a booty haul of his property. The left hand Honor dagger is non attributed; note the extra link in each chain. Other than that the three daggers were identical, all had the Eickhorn early small oval TM and the reverse chains had identical silver content and hall marks.
Sorry for the poor quality pictures, but this was way before digital and I only had a cheap film camera to shoot with. Just wanted to add to this interesting thread.
Here's the link to a SA dagger that I saw at Weitze with the logo 'Deutschland über alles'.
Not exactly correct here in the SS forum but relevant because I've wrote it here in the thread.
https://www.weitze.net/militaria/22/...e__119122.html
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