SS cadet degen

[Frogprince]

I'm fairly certain that I still have a file on German Police swords by Rath, but just offhand the TM ordinarily would not strike an alarm bell for me on a Police Degen. With some makers having listings for SS pommels that were available for their Police swords. And the average SS officer swords from Dachau don't even have TM's or the SS Kulturzeichen.

So with that said: I've seen what I believe to be postwar Rath markings on a police sword blade that I think was a fake - but much worse quality than this one. The pommel button with the Runes is a question mark because I almost seem to get the sense that it's a nickel plated base metal of some kind. The grip center even looks like it may have had a Police emblem in it at one time, and was rewired(?). And the knucklebow on the emblem side has the small circular cutout at the finial end, but where is the shadow for the cutout on the other side? That almost looks like it was never drilled(?). And lastly, the grip/handle resembles the candidate style. But isn't it the NCO swords that have built in scabbard "drag" (not a separate bottom piece)?

All in all for this sword ............. could one of you gentlemen please show me the exit? Fred

[Frogprince]

While I think that this particular sword has multiple “issues” that would prompt a very close examination. I was very remiss in not mentioning that later research has cast some doubt on the label “candidate” sword (but with the other scabbard). With some of the current thinking being that it is probably a non “Honor” version of the sword for officers not awarded one. And while the latest book was a good effort with a lot of very good information. I’m afraid that it’s already out of date and in error is some places, with bad information and regrettably some fakes (altered items).

So whenever I see the comment made that collecting can be a “minefield” I have to agree. But it hasn’t discouraged me from my own collecting - just made me more cautious. And while books can be of great assistance, it was many years ago that I learned that taking them completely at face value could be a serious mistake. With forums like this one with examples to look at, and constantly updated information, probably the best antidote (IMO) to all of the fakes and bad information that has been infecting the collecting community. Best regards to all, Fred

[Rancid66]

Maybe we should open a separate topic, for god copies of edged weapons?
I think that these would help a lot. for collecting community.

Regards
Vedran

[Larry C]

This is a great idea Vedran

[Lakesidetrader]

A couple things here:
Herman Rath is indeed an accepted maker of Officer Candidate swords.
They also used this exact stamped mark on them with the runes and a diamond. I believe the blade is fine.
Rath and WKC proofed their blades with large stamps on the blade.
As far as the pommel nut, while not textbook such a design in there could be Jeweller done.

[Frogprince]

I believe that it was on this forum a while back that a supposed “SS” saber was discussed that had this same Rath maker/SS-Kulturzechen combination stamped on the blade of an Army saber. Double stamped, and at an angle on the blade outside of the area covered by the langet. Not underneath it. And it was during the course of looking into them, that I saw one or more Police swords with markings that might also have been post production. But with a somewhat limited number of images of swords that were not really that closely photographed it left questions. With my experience being that sooner or later examples usually surface that shed more light on the topic. With the example here not quite having the roll stamped/finish appearance marking of swords by Rath that I’m more comfortable with. With this one from my perspective needing some more looking at using different angles. (Not that it makes a lot of difference IMO with an altered parts piece of indeterminate origin.) Best regards to all, Fred

[Wagriff]

I still have never seen a period blade with low quality steel of this appearance. This blade looks like a high school play prop quality...

[Frogprince]

The term “proof(marks)” IMO is a substantial improvement on the: “his personal mark” for Prof. Karl Diebitsch idea as it is seen in some books. With that matter having been discussed at length elsewhere, but with no period proof of any kind supporting the “Diebitsch” theory having been found. And how do you “proofmark” ceramics like the example below - which illustrates both problems (to gun and some sword collectors from which it was borrowed, it has another meaning). With the answer I think having multiple facets. With one of them taking the Dachau manufactured examples into account in those kinds of applications. As being something more like a tax or revenue stamp if some of the research is looked at more closely. And Dachau as a facility that was owned by the SS, not needing to pay royalties/license fees to itself.

I also have a recollection of some kind of SS documentation being required to purchase an authorized SS-pommel extra cost fitting from a swordmaker. With the “rush job from a Berlin Jeweler” an idea advanced (also elsewhere) to try and explain the horrible substandard workmanship on the supposed “Hühnlein NSKK Honor Dagger” fakes. With any theoretical jeweler presumably needing a license and/or permission to engage in manufacturing items with “protected party symbols” ......... if the nationally enforced laws that governed them was going to be followed. Best Regards, Fred

[Berlinvet70]

I used Bing to look up this dagger, here's what I found. I hope it helps you out. living in the US I don't have access to a lot of originals. And as you can see they are very expensive. I do collect copies of certain swords and knives.

[octavian]

SS Degans are considered an investment grade piece.