SS Chained Type II with SS Number and initials on the Tang Nut

[ETF]

Hello Gentlemen,

I would appreciate comments and input on this one. As you will see from the photos some of the connectors have been replaced. My biggest concern is whether or not the engraving of the initials "WT" are period done.

Ed

[Larry C]

Strange to see an SS number on the side of a tang nut as it is common to see the owners initials on the top. The initials appear to be done by an untrained hand as the letter "W" is thin and fat on doiffent parts of the letter,, as the top of the "T" is fatter than the rest of the letter. I feel this was not done by a jeweler and possibly by the original owner or even a recent application.
The only way to prove any truth to these 2 assumptions is to have some Font type experienced eyes who know the letter style or have any documented information. These letters look to be a "Bold" type which is commonly seen today. The question is did the SS man write in this style. this is a hard call and also the same on the numbering font style. I am not dismissing it as recently done ,, but need better eyes who study the font type of the past and the present.
The dagger itself looks to be period,, and not late. it is always a concern to see links that are separated and will lead us astray sometimes that it may not be uniform. The tappered links connecting to the Wotans Knot are the later type. it is possible that this is a period fix.

Any additional comments pertaining to the dagger and mostly towards the font letters used between now and then, would be beneficial.

[Frogprince]

Strange to see an SS number on the side of a tang nut as it is common to see the owners initials on the top. The initials appear to be done by an untrained hand as the letter "W" is thin and fat on doiffent parts of the letter,, as the top of the "T" is fatter than the rest of the letter. I feel this was not done by a jeweler and possibly by the original owner or even a recent application. ...............

The quality of the images makes it difficult to give an accurate assessment (IMO) with even the 'facial' aspects of the skull links for example which are difficult to ascertain. And with an apparent partial attempt to saw the "cloverleaf" in half (?) - that is something that I don't recall seeing before. But the images for the pommel nut itself were a little better. And I do agree that the engraving on the top of the pommel nut is not that of a well trained engraver. But what also caught my interest was the number "1232". Not a stamped number, but possibly rotary engraved? With the repeated number "2" which should be fairly identical (if stamped), quite different in the images. Or maybe it's just the imaging that makes them look that way ?? Fred

[ETF]

Fred,

Thank you for your opinion and input. You have some good points. I have posted a close up of the chain. My concern is not the authenticity of the dagger or the chain. The daggers authenticity has already been confirmed by several world class collectors and dealers. One world class renowned collector along with a few other very knowledgeable collectors believe the number and the engraving to be Third Reich Period.

I don't believe that anyone tried to "saw the cloverleaf in half". My guess is that they are marks that were made by a vise grip of some sort when the link connectors were repaired or replaced. The indentation mark is identical on both the front and back (in the same spots) of the cloverleaf.

I do see what you mean about the number "2" appearing to be slightly different from each other. So I've started researching numbered daggers. I went to Mr. Thomas Whittmann's site...Whittmann Militaria and the first dagger that came up under SS daggers was a numbered chained with the SS number 8853. The numbers appear to be stamped but the two 8's look totally different.

I attached two photos of items out of the Third Reich which shows an example of some period engraving. The goblet is out of a collection of Hermann
Göring's personal items. If you look at the H and G letters in his name the engraving is far from perfect and does resemble the lettering style on this dagger.

I have a note in to a friend in Germany who knows an expert on Third Reich engraving to see if I can get an opinion on the numbers and letters. Sometimes it's tough from photos. We'll see what he says.

I' hoping to get more input on this dagger from some other collectors on this forum as well.


Ed

[ETF]

Larry C.

Thank you for your input. I agree with you that additional comments on the dagger, in particular the numbering and letters would be most helpful.

Ed

[Frogprince]

Ed, With the better image I can see now that the links are of the “Type X” or nasal septum version, and that they look worn but OK. For the ‘cloverleaf’, a vise would have pushed the metal out of the way making a ridge on both sides, which I don’t see. But at this point in time - who knows? And as far as stamps versus engravings go: a stamp can be double struck, tilted, one character hit more forcefully than another, flattened by being hit with something else (etc.) but under close magnification the bottoms of the characters should be the same for repeated stampings. With TW’s dagger at first looking to be partially stamped for some of the characters, but that may be an illusion. And I will have see if have some already prepared images to use for comparison purposes. Regards, Fred

[ETF]

Fred, Thank you again. That is most useful information. Any additional help you could provide with photos would be very helpful. In the meantime, I'll revisit TW's photos and continue to review numbered daggers.

Regards,
Ed

[Andrew]

the numbers on the tang nut when blown up, to me look hand done. not by number stamps, but by separate strikes. the bottoms of the two's are obviously not part of the upper part. and if you look very close at the 3 you can see many marks were used to create it. like they were carved in. just my opinion. i'd say period done by the owner.

[Frogprince]

................ Any additional help you could provide with photos would be very helpful ................ Regards, Ed

Ed, You asked for a photo and here it is. Die stamped SS numbers on early M 1933 crossguards are not uncommon, and with the relatively soft (2/3 copper) nickel silver many times they exhibit ridges of displaced metal that outline the stamped numbers. With the image posted here showing the numbered dagger from Mr. Wittmann that you introduced to the discussion - that I enlarged to the best of my ability to provide a closer look. Next to an old photo I had on file of a hand stamped side by side “99” serial number on a late period steel scabbard. With the number “9” to the left deeper and more vertical. And the “9” to the right struck a little lighter and at a very slight angle. Drawing attention to the form/shape of the characters, and the reasonably consistent depth/width in relation to the rest of the character. Which is what I am not seeing (IMO) with the numbers on the dagger’s crossguard.

PS: Speaking to “personalizations” in general, they can be done by a professional or by hand as the work of an amateur - in period or postwar. Still having some photos of postwar fakes ranging from the very expensive “Kaltenbrunner” SS sword, that had the number and name engraved by a less skilled individual than a professional (IMO). To the much more moderately priced so-called “SS” dress bayonets with added SS numbers, that were sometimes enhanced with other “SS” attributes. Which is NOT to say that all personalizations are bad, just that you have to be careful. Regards to all, Fred

[Larry C]

Just a thought,, about Werner Thoms,, as his SS number is incredibly low which would put him within the circle of Hitler and Himmler. I would think that a person of such low numbering would just scribble it on the tang nut....this is only my opinion and not meant to contradict the authenticity of the numbering. I have seen SS numbers stamped on the crossguards,, upper scabbard fittings..and engraved in the blade near the shoulders. I feel more information of Werner Thoms might add some light into his responsibilities as an SS mann. My question would be............why the tang nut? as it is so small and would take more effort to apply the numbering compared to a crossguard hit,,with less effort. Thoughts?