SS Dagger with Dual Maker Mark

[scruff1]

Hello All, Thanks in advance for any assistance you can give me.

I have the opportunity to purchase a SS dagger from a local gentleman. The blade is dual maker marked 1163/38 SS F.&A. Helbig, Stienbach. Sorry for the lack of many pictures, these are all I have at the moment. Fittings appear to be solid nickel. The scabbard appears to be anodized. Looks like pommel nut has been played with.

I'm not seeing any blatant red flags other than the engraving isn't great (I guess this maker is known for weak engraving) . I have also not actually handled this piece yet. But when I do I will post more pictures. Any help you can give me would be appreciated.

Thanks, Ron

[Larry C]

Hi Ron...There are a few Red Flags that I see,,,#1..the motto looks almost printed on with smudging. The RZM for sure would of not let this one get out of the QC area in this condition. The last word "Treue"...looks to be a Boker SS form style font.
It is hard to tell what the crossguards are made of as the photos are lacking in detail. The grip looks very recent as the contour ridges are very sharp with some sanding on the lower obverse triangle front part of the grip. The tang nut looks Late RZM type. I have seen this dagger somewhere before due to the grip construction.
The logo is very rare and hardly seen,,but it is known as a Transitional maker. Currently information on the logo position is not available to me but the logo does look high up on the blade and off center. Being off center that much IMO is not current with other transitional logo placement.
As an SS dagger especially being an early Mid period type,,One would expect better craftmanship.
IMO this dagger would not be a good investment as it looks to be a parts dagger.
I would like to hear other opinions on this SS dagger also. Regards Larry

[Wagriff]

I've never seen such crude and rough lettering and makers mark. Big Red Flag.... The grip nut looks to be almost totally plateless and much abused, but the rest of the parts look fine. And, for being a supposed Transitional model with both makers mark and RZM, there is no Distribution mark on the guard...? Definitely Not a dagger that I would want in my collection or invest money into.

[scruff1]

Thanks Larry, I knew this was probably to good to be true. Glad I asked questions before I spent hard earned money.

Regards, Ron

[Mac 66]

The hj knife is a fake

Dual marked Helbig SS daggers seem to be fakes from the 1960s?: Helbig Transitional SS Dagger - Need Opinions... - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

Regards Mac 66.

[Lakesidetrader]

Hi Ron, thanks for those pics.
The HJ is post war.
As for the Helbig SS. It`s not a parts dagger. This is exactly how these were made.
If you take a magnet you will see that those guards are iron based. The eagle is high on the grip and the etching is terrible quality. Additionally it will require 2 hands to remove the blade from the scabbard because they are tight as can be. They also made SA`s that reflect these same attributes.
Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums
Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums
Look in Witty`s reference and you will see this dagger pictured.
Some in the hobby do not like these and cast doubt on when they were produced.
The result is they are a very difficult sell so consider yourself warned.

[Larry C]

Hi Paul,,thank you for your Input as this maker is quite deceiving in appearance. Which after reading the 2 links you supplied leaves me quite surprised a Mid period transitional would come from the producer looking this way. Your right!!....this dagger and many others that follow behind it in this condition along with its SA counterpart,,,will be hard to believe. Gratefully I thank you for your eyes and your years of experience. I would have to call this dagger producer... "A Black Sheep Loner"....although genuine,,but shunned for its image. This one is definitely a shot in the arm for the purists. Thanks again Paul...Best Regards Larry

[Larry C]

But IMO I still think the grip is recent,,which doesnt match the condition of the dagger at all. JM3 cents