Hi Paul..I have a Gebr. Heller early SA..that I will shoot photos of..including any tang markings, and internal guard markings. Regards Larry
Hi Paul..I have a Gebr. Heller early SA..that I will shoot photos of..including any tang markings, and internal guard markings. Regards Larry
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!- Larry C
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Thanks Larry.
Tang marks
Hi Larry,
Please find attached my pictures of the tang with billet marks. Also there seems to be a mark on the tang neck, not too sure what kind?
Many thanks,
Paul.
Hi Paul...a step in the right direction as the blade is period. I will post my photos tonight and sorry for the delay...life happens sometimes. Im not sure of the marking on the tang and I will have to reference that after work today. Regards Larry
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Below are pics of my Gebr. Heller SA..I want to show the characteristics of this dagger which those who collect these types...that Some makers had also produced SS daggers..along with their SA counterparts. An example of such " same characteristics" would be the Eickhorn firm..as this producer produced both SA and SS daggers...with the same details..except the grip color and runes button differed. Occasionally we may see differed crossguards on Eickhorn or any other maker that may filled their production quota with sub contracted guards and blades according to provided specs to the sub contractor. In the case of Eickhorn..mostly everything was done in house.
The blade tang: Gebr. Heller had their tangs marked separately with the letters "E" and "F".... possibly due to a production run..or another source. The letter "F" is seen in Ralf Siegerts SA reference compliments of Helmut Wietze. The letter "E' is seen and noted in Fishers reference...and also pictured on my example below. The tangs were tapered from the blade shoulders to the tip before the tang nut threads. On Pauls example there seems to be some weld work possibly done to the fat part of the tang closest to the blade shoulders. What looks to me some type of repair showing what looks to be an image or marking which none in any source references I know of bear this type of marking. There are a few makers though that had blank blade tangs...listed below are those producers
1. Aesculap
2.Christianswerk
3.Carl Eickhorn
4.Gottlieb Hammesfahr
5.Carl Kuhrt
6. WKC
Let me make this clear that these producers...ALSO USED THE BLANK TANGS..ALONG WITH THEIR MARKED TANGS. These makers I listed that I know of also participated in the use of blank tangs.
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
The producers logo:
Gebr.Heller- "Marinethal" used 3 variant types used as the straight line type. This variant which appears on Pauls blade and also my blade are the most commonly seen. Below are photos of both Blades for ...text comparison. There is somewhat of larger space after the period on Pauls example..but the lettering that seems to be lifted up under the letters "Heller" appear to be the same on both blades.
The crossgrain must be taken into consideration on early SA and SS daggers. A noticeable difference can be seen by the naked eye that on Early SA and SS daggers..that the crossgrain will be finer in appearance compared to what would be seen on Late RZM types with a more coarse grain. On early SA and SS daggers the blade itself will exhibit something a later RZM type can not.... a fine noticeable crossgrain...AND..a mirror image of the beholder in the reflection of the blade. These early blades...are the only type other than Luft and Heer daggers with polished blades...can show the best of both worlds in crossgrain and reflection. Late RZM types can not do this. Below are pics of both Gebr. Heller and a minty Late RZM7/13 blade
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
The Motto: Gebr. Heller "Marienthal" Mottos...were had great depth compared to normally seen frosted types that were shallow in depth. Most noticeable was the thinness of the lettering....compared to the frosted types looking fatter. This is a normal trait for this maker to have a deeper cut into the steel which also includes pimpling in the font type..due to the impurites in the steel during the forge process. A true Gebr. Heller will show the pimpling seen in their lettering. I would have to say that I would also have to expect the same for its SS counterpart if this maker did make SS daggers. Boker SS daggers also exhibit this pimpling..but less so than Heller. below are pics of the motto etch by Gebr. Heller.
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
The Grip:...I have no doubts about the grip at all and the grip is period...but not sure if it was once an SA grip or not. What would be common to see is pressure marks where the guards meet the grip giving off a shiny appearance..which sat over 70 some years pressed into the wood. Pauls example also shows this type of pressure..but on some high spots only. Over the years whether the grip is brown or black..a natural change will occur with toning and wear. ALL EARLY SA AND SS DAGGERS..will have a smooth or polished appearing surface to the grip..as the woods used back then were of higher grade than the lesser type woods seen towards the end of the RZM period. Some SS grips were painted as seen on Boker..RZM121/34 etc. Pauls grip does appear to have this type of early finish on some parts of the grip..but still does not explain the association to Heller. The SS runes button is raised up a bit which on mostly all the runes button will be recessed or even.....Im not sure of the Runes button itself.
Below are pics of the Heller grip top and bottom and showing the pressure points.
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Finally crossguards:.... Thuringia maker crossguards varied but in most cases had a slightly lower step where the grip meets the lower guard. On my Guards the are internally marked with "M" and "S" which these markings only appear in Ralf Siegerts SA reference..but the letters are named to the following producers.
F&A Helbig
Malsch and Ambron
Carl Spitzer
Ehrhardt Reich
Otto Simon
This also means that these producers also supplied these guards to Heller.
Gebr. Heller also used guards marked
P&A a most common foundry widely seen in many SA and SS daggers.....
the letter "H" on one side of the guard
the letters "H" and "X" in the same guard
and also unmarked guards as shown above on Pauls guards. the dots in the guards are injection points...still a common attribute for many makers. These guards are commonly used by many producers.
I have not noticed an SS district Roman Numeral which would be located on the lower crossguard reverse side..which is very common with all early SS daggers. If there any "early" SS daggers without this SS district stamping ..the forum and myself would be pleased to see any examples..and add to this data base.
The tang nut that appears on Pauls example is a plated type...below is apic of an early nickel type which will never show any lifting or age except a fine patina.
There is not much more information i can provide to help support Pauls SS dagger..as there is no period documentation that stated that Heller was an SS maker..but I wanted to provide a similar view of a maker like Eichkorn that would exhibit the same details on both SA and SS daggers,,,the same details would of been exhibited if Heller "Marienthal" was an SS producer. Heller was a common maker..and I would expect to of seen some SS production their part. Condition and craftmanship is the key to discerning early and Late daggers. These are my findings on MY Gebr. Heller. Thankyou everyone for your time and patience for my delayed photos and Paul for bringing your dagger to the forum for discussion. Regards Larry
Last edited by Larry C; 11-26-2013 at 11:34 AM.
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
I would say that this pretty well definitively lays to rest the authenticity of this dagger...Very well done and presented, Larry!
William
"Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."
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